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Old 04-09-2018, 02:41 PM   #1
Justin7
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Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

What is the greatest economic system? A fight to the... unsatisfying stalemate where no minds are changed.
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Old 04-09-2018, 02:49 PM   #2
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
What is the greatest economic system? A fight to the... unsatisfying stalemate where no minds are changed.
The title of your thread is the epitome of failure of this entire discourse.

An either/or battle on this topic is a useless, futile, lose-lose battle. There are other (non-binary) ways to talk about this...but whatever.
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:01 PM   #3
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

That was kind of the point.

I'm all for a nuanced discussion -- and for what it's worth I probably align rather closely with you ideologically, at least judging from your recent posts the topic -- but I have a hard time seeing that happen on this forum without heavy moderation, or at least the ability to "lock the door."

I saw this more as a place to contain the noise.
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:05 PM   #4
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

^ sounds good then. I agree with pulling these debates out of the development threads.
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:59 PM   #5
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

I don't think you can ever have a fully free market, aka a market that totally self regulated and without any sort of public sector.

I do think that for the most part the private sector does things more efficiently and innovates more then the public sector. Though i'm not saying that the alternative, privatization of public services or crony capitalism, is any better. Both publicly run services and crony capitalist services have corruption that reduces its efficiency. I wish US projects could find a way to better structure privatization contracts to better serve the public, then privatization might be a decent way of lowering costs. Although the issue with privatization is that for profit business will always require a profit, a profit that will come at the public expense.

But I think that both sides of the political spectrum believe in some sort free market with a "socialist" component added. The right advocates for more private alternatives, like school vouchers for example.

I'd say that the current mainstream democratic party is fairly moderate. The Clinton era was still fairly neo-liberal (pro free market). Even the Obama era didn't do much to whole-hardly change the healthcare system. It was just a patchwork of ideas to decrease the amount of uninsured and expand medicaid.

I think the negotiating position that the US Government would have over hospitals and drug companies would be better in a single payer system. However I wonder if the inherent insufficiencys of the government and corruption would overshadow the better negotiating position. But as it sits now a patchwork of different insurance companies does not have much negotiation power, at least compared to the power that one single entity would have.

I do think the US should do more to improve job reeducation systems and make college more affordable.
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:04 AM   #6
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

A few quick thoughs:
- The forum does better with an area to discuss politics for the same reason a city does better with a sewer.
- I am in agreement with the Mikton Friedman line that capitalsim is a necessary but not sufficient requirement for political freedom.
- The freer the market, the more organic urban development will be. Central planning ala Robert Moses is hardly emblematic of a free market.
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:21 AM   #7
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Analogy of the day. Thank you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
...The forum does better with an area to discuss politics for the same reason a city does better with a sewer.
I honestly think that it's modern political discourse that's taken a nosedive toward hate, divisiveness, close-mindedness...not the basic concepts of liberal market or coordinated market capitalism in and of themselves.

I lean in the other direction from guys like Milton Friedman and Gary Becker, but I've enjoyed reading their debates and have learned from classes in which we covered them. Here's the thing: I don't agree with those guys, but they had useful, constructive points...modern political discourse is all about vitriol and accusations, not constructive debate. For example, Friedman was all about minimizing government and giving corporations (IMO unreasonable) freedom, but he also saw the need for smart minimum wage policy because he knew that the market would not create a just/reasonable bottom on its own. And, Becker, for example, really believed that racism would be eradicated by the markets because it would be economically destructive for anyone to be racist - he was wrong, but I don't think he would have ever said "racism is not an important issue"...I just think, as a theorist, he honestly believed it would go extinct.

The point is that both of these guys...and for the worse...have served to form ideologies of the 21st century right that isn't even fully congruent with either of those guys' original messages back in their day.

Capitalism has been politicized by those who benefit from it being binary and divisive. People are conned into thinking that there's such a "natural" thing as an entirely free market. That's modern a sociopolitical construction...far from "natural"...and meanwhile, those on the left close their eyes and ears to important concepts about markets that they'd be better off trying to understand.
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:39 AM   #8
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

And tysmith, thank you; your example of thinking about what pros/cons exist with both sides' approaches is the type of eyes-wide-open thinking we need. I call the BS flag on those tho think privatized services are intrinsically more free from corruption and I also call the BS flag on those complacent about performance of existing public services/systems. The concept of "we need good, competent managers" is an apolitical concept.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:00 AM   #9
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

http://time.com/373/congress-is-now-...ionaires-club/
They are not representing the best interest of our nation or humanity that is the resentment. No-one gives a shit if your a millionaire but when you start going along with the corporate agenda and sacrificing our financial/overall freedoms. That's the problem.

Giving tax dollars to certain groups rather than others is not free markets its fascism.
When you take something from someone and give to someone else.

For Example
creating new taxes like BID in the downtown Boston is double taxes on the successful businesses then taking their success and giving it to an agenda to either get the political party more votes or just money. You can't create double taxation on certain groups (say we can't afford public services) then give tax breaks to others. (This creates jobs)
HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THIS?
Why not give everybody taxbreaks and incentives? Its JOB CREATION


This why so many people in America have died fighting for freedom for examples like this. This is basically totalitarian one-party state in Mass.

Either this group of people that blog on this site work for the STATE, CITY, Unions or Some of the Big Developers/Construction companies that have created a monopoly on development/construction in the city not to have understanding on what is going on or they just try to shut people down. Great fellow Americans on this site that only care about their agenda. Which they are to dumb to understand the long-term effects to this type of thinking.

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Old 04-10-2018, 08:49 AM   #10
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpicture7 View Post
And tysmith, thank you; your example of thinking about what pros/cons exist with both sides' approaches is the type of eyes-wide-open thinking we need. I call the BS flag on those tho think privatized services are intrinsically more free from corruption and I also call the BS flag on those complacent about performance of existing public services/systems. The concept of "we need good, competent managers" is an apolitical concept.
Agreed.

I think overall history has shown that capitalism is the best economic strcture to innovate and advance society. I think the argument would be how the government should regulate it, and weather the government should do anything to smoothe inequality that the system creates.

I don't think that inequality is inherently bad. However I do think the government has a responsibility to improve access (aka education) to ensure that all youth have a good chance. Without that our society would evolve into a class system, which I think will hurt everyone.

Also utilities and infastracture is something that's a natural monolopy and needs to be controlled or regulated by the government.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:47 AM   #11
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpicture7 View Post
And tysmith, thank you; your example of thinking about what pros/cons exist with both sides' approaches is the type of eyes-wide-open thinking we need. I call the BS flag on those tho think privatized services are intrinsically more free from corruption and I also call the BS flag on those complacent about performance of existing public services/systems. The concept of "we need good, competent managers" is an apolitical concept.
Everyone would agree with that, unless they're being paid not to. Its worth noting that some of the staunchest opponents of a free market are the capitalists themselves (capitalists in the sense of having capital, not in the sense of adhering to to the ideas of capitalism). Hell, thats pretty much verbatim the opinion of the father of capitalism, Adam Smith.

Every political and economic action we take, either as individuals or as a society, is ultimately a matter of trade offs. If we all keep this in mind when debating our ideas, things should (hopefully) be less acrimonious.
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Old 04-10-2018, 02:25 PM   #12
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

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Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
Every political and economic action we take, either as individuals or as a society, is ultimately a matter of trade offs. If we all keep this in mind when debating our ideas, things should (hopefully) be less acrimonious.
The internet and cable news has made confirmation bias worse. Too many news organizations, and most politicians for that matter, tell people what they want to hear without having any real conversations.

The US public is also very bad at discerning what is reliable information. It doesn't help that the major news organizations are losing some of their credibility by trying to compete with social media and blogs by giving out information as fast as possible. But I think too many people are seeking out the information that they want to hear rather then actually understanding and coming to independent conclusions about regarding the issues.

The internet has eroded the barrier to entry for the media. As a result extremely biased sources (brietbart) have gained prominence. You could also talk about social media, but I won't even go into that. It doesn't help that the president has a loose association with the truth and dumbs down issues to their lowest common denominator with the public.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:09 PM   #13
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by tysmith95 View Post
The internet and cable news has made confirmation bias worse. Too many news organizations, and most politicians for that matter, tell people what they want to hear without having any real conversations.

The US public is also very bad at discerning what is reliable information. It doesn't help that the major news organizations are losing some of their credibility by trying to compete with social media and blogs by giving out information as fast as possible. But I think too many people are seeking out the information that they want to hear rather then actually understanding and coming to independent conclusions about regarding the issues.

The internet has eroded the barrier to entry for the media. As a result extremely biased sources (brietbart) have gained prominence. You could also talk about social media, but I won't even go into that. It doesn't help that the president has a loose association with the truth and dumbs down issues to their lowest common denominator with the public.
Our nation has a 20+Trillion dollar national Debt
Federal Govt runs a 735 Billion dollar budget deficit
Unfunded Liabs are at least 115+Trillion owed to seniors.
The United States Govt is the #1 Employer in our country.
You call this FREEDOM?
If somebody threatens this machine you will be taken out.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

This is not a free country anymore. You have limited choices with unlimited
bureaucracies.

Take a ride through this country----and you will see a different America.
Most parts are very Poor.
America is turning into a 3rd world nation. (income inequality)

Quote:

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:23 PM   #14
tysmith95
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRifleman View Post
Our nation has a 20+Trillion dollar national Debt
Federal Govt runs a 735 Billion dollar budget deficit
Unfunded Liabs are at least 115+Trillion owed to seniors.
The United States Govt is the #1 Employer in our country.
You call this FREEDOM?
If somebody threatens this machine you will be taken out.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

This is not a free country anymore. You have limited choices with unlimited
bureaucracies.

Take a ride through this country----and you will see a different America.
Most parts are very Poor.
America is turning into a 3rd world nation. (income inequality)
Your post is unrelated to what I wrote and is a not well though out alarmist rant that you've continuously repeated over and over again on this site.

You can have an educated talk about capitalism, privatization versus government run services, and what the extend of government regulation or control should be. Or you can continue to rant about DEBT.

The government is the biggest employer in basically every country. Now here's a graph of the percentage of public sector employment among wealthy countries, that might be an interesting discussion to have. I'm not sure how they classify government contractors or employers like Keolis, i'm assuming that it would be considered private sector but that's a blurry line.

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Old 04-10-2018, 03:32 PM   #15
DominusNovus
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by tysmith95 View Post
The internet and cable news has made confirmation bias worse. Too many news organizations, and most politicians for that matter, tell people what they want to hear without having any real conversations.

The US public is also very bad at discerning what is reliable information. It doesn't help that the major news organizations are losing some of their credibility by trying to compete with social media and blogs by giving out information as fast as possible. But I think too many people are seeking out the information that they want to hear rather then actually understanding and coming to independent conclusions about regarding the issues.

The internet has eroded the barrier to entry for the media. As a result extremely biased sources (brietbart) have gained prominence. You could also talk about social media, but I won't even go into that. It doesn't help that the president has a loose association with the truth and dumbs down issues to their lowest common denominator with the public.
I disagree with the particulars of your post, though less so with the broad presmise. Id say that the lowered barriers to entry are not as much of a problem as some would suggest, and that we had many of these same issues with bias in earlier eras, but there were so fewer sources that the bias was harder to detect. Id actually say that the situation is similar to how je news is always full of stories about crime, even as crime rates fall. Similarly, the more media we consume, the more aware we are of its biases, but theyve always been there.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:37 PM   #16
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

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Originally Posted by tysmith95 View Post
Your post is unrelated to what I wrote and is a not well though out alarmist rant that you've continuously repeated over and over again on this site.

You can have an educated talk about capitalism, privatization versus government run services, and what the extend of government regulation or control should be. Or you can continue to rant about DEBT.

The government is the biggest employer in basically every country. Now here's a graph of the percentage of public sector employment among wealthy countries, that might be an interesting discussion to have. I'm not sure how they classify government contractors or employers like Keolis, i'm assuming that it would be considered private sector but that's a blurry line.
Since you said the Internet has eroded the barrier I just wanted to state the overall data points for where I get my factual information.
If you notice the media never talks about America debt situation. I actually believe NYC took down the billboard with the National Debt figures.

Money controls and drives most families lives and determines everything on why people get up in the morning, feed their families.

look at the data I just posted. I know the private sector doesn't run their companies like this or they would be bankrupt and out of business.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:42 PM   #17
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

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Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
I disagree with the particulars of your post, though less so with the broad presmise. Id say that the lowered barriers to entry are not as much of a problem as some would suggest, and that we had many of these same issues with bias in earlier eras, but there were so fewer sources that the bias was harder to detect. Id actually say that the situation is similar to how je news is always full of stories about crime, even as crime rates fall. Similarly, the more media we consume, the more aware we are of its biases, but theyve always been there.
Good point.

It seems like we've had a fairly long period, from the end of WW2 until the 21st century, where politics weren't really polarized, at least not to the extent that it is now.

I just feel like polarization has been increasing in the past 10-15 years, and I tried to find a cause. Increasing polarization has coincided with the rise of social media, so maybe that is part of the problem. I'm not sure though.

According to most studies polarization is rising.
http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/...erican-public/

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRifleman View Post
Since you said the Internet has eroded the barrier I just wanted to state the overall data points for where I get my factual information.
If you notice the media never talks about America debt situation. I actually believe NYC took down the billboard with the National Debt figures.

Money controls and drives most families lives and determines everything on why people get up in the morning, feed their families.

look at the data I just posted. I know the private sector doesn't run their companies like this or they would be bankrupt and out of business.
The media doesn't talk about the debt because the media has a short attention span. Alarmists like you have been talking about debt since the Bush years. And you know what, the world has not fallen and the economy has rebounded pretty nicely, but slowly, from the recession.

And lots of companies rely on debt. Most real estate companies incur huge sums of debt in order to build many of the projects that we talk about on this site.

Anyway, the US economic system is much more complicated then just a companies. First of a government goal is not to turn a profit, the governments goal is to serve its constituents the best. The government controls currencies, so frankly they could just print money to get out of debt, although that would weaken the value of the dollar and cause lots of problems.

Frankly I'm too busy right now to get into a whole macro economics and forex discussion. It's a very complicated thing, and is not something that can be looked at like running a business could be looked at. Running a business is much easier then running a whole country.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:03 PM   #18
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

Of course US politics were less polarized from WW2 until the 21st century. We were in the Cold War. There was just as much vitriol and hatred, but it was not neatly organized along party lines. I ask if youd take the hyper partisanship of today over the 1960s and all of the assassinations that went with that decade.
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Old 04-10-2018, 05:37 PM   #19
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

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Of course US politics were less polarized from WW2 until the 21st century. We were in the Cold War. There was just as much vitriol and hatred, but it was not neatly organized along party lines. I ask if youd take the hyper partisanship of today over the 1960s and all of the assassinations that went with that decade.
Yea, but it's more than that. In the 20th century, prosperity used to flow to everyone when the U.S.'s overall productivity rose. Now productivity continues to rise but wages are flat. I think there was an overall sense of shared achievement between WWII and the start of the 80s...today that's missing...



Also I think that people honestly don't get what the "income inequality" critique is about. It does not mean that a janitor should get paid the same as a CEO. It does mean that people should share proportionately in the wealth that results from our aggregate production. If a janitor could afford a loaf of bread and to send her kid to community college in 1975, but the same janitor can no longer afford to do that in 2018 because her real wage declined by 5%...meanwhile the CEO of her company's real wage rose by 1,000% in that same timeframe...THAT's inequitable. And that's what the graph above essentially shows...because that wealth is going somewhere (hint: to the CEO, not the janitor).

Honestly, this fight over income inequality is so misunderstood its a joke. The uninitiated conservatives think someone is telling them we shouldn't have income stratification...no one is saying that. Everyone believes a janitor should get paid less than a CEO. That's not what this is about.

Last edited by bigpicture7; 04-10-2018 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 04-11-2018, 06:55 AM   #20
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Re: Capitalism vs Not Capitalism

^That graph is certainly interesting, but it dosn't give much information. Is that medium income? I'm sure that it is inflation adjusted. Or is it average income?
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