Vision for the South Boston Seaport

[czsz]

No one doubts a new Back Bay would be preferable. But given the economic constraints / orthodoxies that militate against this, Seaport Square is hardly the worst result. It's a vast improvement on what's been built in the Seaport over the last decade (the WTC complex, with its alternating series of midrises and parks, is atrocious). At this point I'll take anything that even tries to make gestures toward composing a neighborhood. Something in between Kendall Square and the Back Bay is the best anyone can hope for.

[vanshnookenraggen]

Since a great neighborhood is made up of various layers of historical development we all need to give this area a break since this is really only the first layer (or second if you include the warehouses). When you plant a tree it you don't plant it fully grown.

[kennedy]

I would rather them come up with a better seed for the tree. This seems like too much plain brick and glass with no detail. I'd rather have designs that would be more comprehensive to growth, but I guess that due to economic restraints that would be impossible. I hear what you're saying Van, but I'm worried that the growth will never happen. Since Gale (it's Gale, right?) owns all the land, you can't assume that some other developer will be able to come along and buy some of that park space in between buildings to develop, unless they sell it off after two years to a variety of buyers. And simply the uses of some of the buildings are simply not right for the area. I guess I always thought this would be a sort of entertainment district, but clearly that's not what the buffoons who make the decisions want.

[vanshnookenraggen]

I was about to type "the biggest problem with the SBW is" and then I realized that there are many many problems (but also many opportunities).

First the problems:
- Even with the Pike and Silver Line it is kinda in the middle of no where. It is at the edge of the city with no real reason for people to have to go through it.
- The powers that be don't really have that much power to build whatever they want. They said this was going to be an entertainment/hotel/business convention center but we already have one of those, the Back Bay/Theatre Dist. We don't need a second one and if built it would kill the one we have.
- Parking. As in, this is the best place for it. Look at Dallas or LA or any other auto-centric city and their urban fabric was ripped up long ago to handle cars. Boston is lucky to have most of it's fabric secured by having all this parking off to the side.

Now there are many opportunities for this land but we have to find the right uses for it. I don't really think a giant entertainment center in a good idea (for the reasons stated). I would have said this would be a great place for biotech but the current economy kinda killed that.

What I honestly think should be done is to just build tons of loft buildings. They can either be used for residential, office, or industry. They are all purpose and can easily be adapted depending on what is needed. But that is just a pipe dream.

[kennedy]

Originally Posted by vanshnookenraggen

What I honestly think should be done is to just build tons of loft buildings. They can either be used for residential, office, or industry. They are all purpose and can easily be adapted depending on what is needed.

You know, I agree to this. At least, over in the Fort Point section, this is what should be built-lots of brick warehouse-type buildings that could become anything the user wanted. Residential? Sure. Offices? Sure. Retail or Restaurants? Sure.

I also believe that this could survive as a type of entertainment district that is distinctly different from the Back Bay. Back Bay to me has always seems like a very local area. Financial-types wives from Marblehead went to shop on Newbury, while Pops worked in the Pru. It is all super elegant, but it always seemed very local. Lots of colleges around, near Fenway, older buildings...I don't really know, but it sure as hell never felt too touristy to me.

I think that's what SBW should become-the touristy part of Boston. Sure, they'll want to visit all the historical stuff, but at night they'll go back to their moderate to semi-upscale hotels, shop in semi-upscale shops after getting ideas the day before on Newbury, and eat in decent restaurants (Legal, for example...even my dream of getting an ESPN Zone). This also fits the WTC and BCEC being there, because (hopefully) many business people will come into town and support these business hotels, and not excellent but not 99 restaurants. It is close to the Financial District, be easily connected with Logan, and with that brand new elevated monorail, it will be connected with the rest of the city. Then, locals would come in to the residential at Fort Point and Fan Pier, biotechs would build offices in some of the parcels left off of the hotel, BCEC, gov't, and cultural/entertainment developments.

I guess, in dream-world, it would all fill in very nicely, complement the rest of the city, and allow Boston to grow without neighborhoods fighting over business.

[czsz]

If tourists want to go to tasteless chain bars and tacky restaurants, they have plenty to choose from in and around the far more tasteful setting of Faneuil Hall. As much as I'm all for exiling them to the Seaport, I'm not sure why they'd want to spread out on its precast plains.

Your vision sounds way more amenable to Vegas or Dubai.

[SeamusMcFly]

Boston could use a new entertainment area, but not one that fights with the Back Bay. Boston has lost it's club scene, and by clubs I mean The Rat, Avalon, The Venus, and Fort Points own Channel.

That's what I envisioned for the SBW and new entertainment district. The artsy kids (and young adults) are already over here, why not bring in the type of entertainment they want. Lansdowne street has been fully raped over the last couple decades, and the finishing touches are being put on as they finish the <gag> House of Blues.

Sadly, if you want to go to a punk, metal, hardcore, or even a real good ol fashioned rock show, you pretty much have to look outside of the city limits to Cambridge or worse yet to the Palladium in Worcester, and even further to out of the state to Providence.

Let the Back Bay and the Theatre district have all the upscale that it wants, and give us our own version of Sunset Strip, with your choice of venue.

Whoever said the Back Bay doesn't feel touristsy.... Really? I feel like a tourist just being there. That's the whole idea. It doesn't feel like a single person lives there, or that the residences are just one of 5 or 6 in some rich guys stable of homes he can sleep at if he happens to be in the area, or needs a place to take his mistress that night.

One other thing I don't understand, is why is the 99 so bad? What's bad is that there is no affordable places to eat in the SBW. We don't even have a Burger King or a Wendy's (both of which have high profile store fronts right on Boylston in the heart of the Back Bay). You need places that the everyday Joe can just walk in and get food. We have very few affordable food choices here. Lucky's and Blue Wave are fairly cheap if not very good, and Yada Yada is a great little jewel in the area. Yeah yeah more will come with people, but it all sounds way too chic for me. Like the new places Mrs. Lynch opened up. I went to Drink, it was meh. And, way more than I want to spend on meh....

Enough rambling I have work to do.

[vanshnookenraggen]

Actually I think that is a great idea but I don't think that can ever happen with the city pushing development as hard as it is. Those types of places have to grow naturally. I'd say you can still find a bit of it in Allston but that turned frat house long ago. You want a good music scene the closest you are gonna find is in Brooklyn (I am in no way bashing Boston bands, just the scene).

[kennedy]

See, I think the House of Blues should be built in the SBW, after Ft. Pt. is finished, the CHannel can go back there. I'd rather see the area around Lansdowne rebuilt as the club scene-I don't know a lot about what there is, but it still fits better there. Near colleges, not near convention centers. 30 and 40 year old business men will want to go to House of Blues for business dinners and the like. 20 something college kids will be at the Avalon and such partying until 3am (hopefully).

[KentXie]

I'm also pushing for an entertainment district although it doesn't seem to happen. Who's up for a Boston version of Navy Pier?

[kennedy]

Navy Pier sort of sucks...but I guess it would be good to put on the Fish Pier spot...is that drydock still working, or is it just a relic of times past?

[vanshnookenraggen]

Seconding the suckage of Navy Pier. Plus we already have a giant tourist trap with Faneuil Hall/Quincy Market.

[czsz]

I like the idea of keeping the fish at Fish Pier. Is there already a wholesale market there like New York's old Fulton Fish Market? If not, there should be one.

Sadly, if you want to go to a punk, metal, hardcore, or even a real good ol fashioned rock show, you pretty much have to look outside of the city limits to Cambridge

Oh the horror, it's a ten-minute ride on the Red Line. True, Cambridge/Somerville aren't as densely built up as the Boston city core, but it's where most of what's left of the "scene" is, after all. Central, Inman, Davis, and to some extent Union are more or less Boston's equivalent of the L train neighborhoods in Brooklyn - not that they necessarily measure up all that well.

[kennedy]

Although Faneuil Hall is a huge tourist trap, I'd definitely say there's a healthy dose of locals too. And hey, tourists boost economy, so who cares if we build to bring them? Give them a taste of what the old amusement parks along Revere Beach were-some history with their hot dogs (oh, theyll be called fenway franks for touristy boston sake).

czsz, I was thinking of fish pier with the big empty drydock, not the distributor wholesale market-thats the E St. Fish Pier. I'm thinking of the one closer to fid kennedy ave and the BoA pavillion.

check this out, i googled mapped my entire vision of the seaport for all of your viewing pleasure. in general blue is mixed dev/shopping/dining, orange is offices/industrial, white is govt owned, green is park space/amusements, purple is hotels, red is residential, and yellow is venue oriented stuff.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...55275&t=k&z=14

[PaulC]

The Fulton St Fish Market closed in 2005.

They converted the auction room at the fish pier to a conference room about ten+ years ago. There's plenty of places in the area they could have used for a conference room. They should bring the fish auction back to this site. That would make this area and the the city a more interesting placw to visit.

[kennedy]

I decided to make a new thread where we could discuss pipe-dream type stuff for the South Boston Seaport, and leave the New Development thread to the actually proposed sort of thing.

Here is my Google Maps rendering of what I think the Seaport should be. I'll keep working on it when I have time, adding more, organizing more, spreading to more than just the Seaport. When I have fancy graphics software maybe I'll put up better maps. Anyhow, here's the link:

New Seaport

[czsz]

...which is why I called it the "old" Fulton Fish Market. The new one is in some antiseptic warehouse in the Bronx. Boston should capitalize on the fact that New York no longer offers the experience of shopping a dockside catch.

Although Faneuil Hall is a huge tourist trap, I'd definitely say there's a healthy dose of locals too.

Who, the school kids who get dumped there for cheap Friday afternoon field trips? Anyway I can hardly fathom why the fact that Faneuil Hall can be enjoyed by a larger cross-section of people means the SBW should be surrendered over as an exclusive tourist zone. There doesn't seem to be a market for the kind of thing you're proposing - can you give an example of a neighborhood like this anywhere? I don't think any additional tourists are going to come to Boston because it's added some newly built retail and entertainment district with "amusement park" qualities.

[kennedy]

Originally Posted by czsz

Anyway I can hardly fathom why the fact that Faneuil Hall can be enjoyed by a larger cross-section of people means the SBW should be surrendered over as an exclusive tourist zone. There doesn't seem to be a market for the kind of thing you're proposing - can you give an example of a neighborhood like this anywhere? I don't think any additional tourists are going to come to Boston because it's added some newly built retail and entertainment district with "amusement park" qualities.

I don't want to exile tourists here. And I don't assume that it will attract more people, but to be built as the city grows. Surely, a city such as Boston can't rely on history, colleges, and sports to attract all it's people. If you looked at the map I made, there was a lot of residential where I thought it should be. An example of an area that successfully has a district like this? The loop in Chicago along the River...Trump Tower, House of Blues, McCormick and Schmicks, Dick's Last Resort, and various offices. Very business-dinnery, but well connected to the rest of the city, and very vibrant at point (Theater District). I don't mean only tourists, I mean business people from the BCEC and WTC and offices, people going to the Fish Market, locals in Fort Point, day-trippers for the cannons/revs games, shoppers at waterside place and the other shopping i proposed.

my thoughts arent very coherent right now, sorry for the rambling lists.

[vanshnookenraggen]

Awesome. This is exactly why this subforum exists. I moved the last bunch of posts over here so we can keep actual development stuff separate.

[czsz]

It sounds like what you want, kennedy, is a mixed-use central business district (the Loop comparison gives it away). As you somewhat alluded to before, Boston (mostly) has this in the form of the Back Bay.

I'm not sure the city could sustain another, and, even if it could, the SBW is probably not the best place for it, being so peripheral. Some parts of your proposal - the stadium, the convention center expansion - would draw people, but only on a limited, cyclical or seasonal basis. When they're not drawing them, they'll only contribute to the neighborhood's current reputation as a dead zone. Witness: the current BoA pavillion sits amid fairly empty streets whenever there's not a concert. Fenway, which is a century old, does little to liven Yawkey Way. God only knows why politicians and planners have been so eager to dump their plans for stadia and convention center enlargements in this area when the ICA is set to be forever hemmed in by Fan Pier development. As for moving City Hall, it would be inconvenient for thousands, and if it doesn't do much to liven up Government Center, it won't do much here.

Large, occasional uses need to be sprinkled around cities - not concentrated in certain parts of them. Putting too many here exacerbates the already vexing problem of dead streets lining massive superblocks.