Biking in Boston

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by jass

Is just absurd. Paris has always been the best and brightest example of successful bike share.

When Paris' started their system they put many stations in unintegrated ethnic ghettos in an attempt to provide service and amenities to economically depressed areas. This worked as well as a cynic could expect. where the vicious anti-social youth trashed them, threw them in the Seine, stole them for export, and all sorts of other criminal activity. Once stations were relocated away the idiot neighborhoods too stupid to realize benefits, the problems with the system went away. But the initial problems were a black eye for an otherwise successful system.

I honestly think, aside from the density issue, this is why HubWay is reluctant to move into certain parts of Roxbury, Mattapan, and Dorchester. The 'this-is-why-the-rest-of-us-can't-have-nice-stuff-because-they-like-to smash-everything-teenage-thug-crowd' is probably on their minds and avoiding incidents, which provide boiler plate for the local press, before the rest of the system has a reputation for success, is likely desirable.

[whighlander]

Originally Posted by Lurker

When Paris' started their system they put many stations in unintegrated ethnic ghettos in an attempt to provide service and amenities to economically depressed areas....

I honestly think, aside from the density issue, this is why HubWay is reluctant to move into certain parts of Roxbury, Mattapan, and Dorchester. The 'this-is-why-the-rest-of-us-can't-have-nice-stuff-because-they-like-to smash-everything-teenage-thug-crowd' is probably on their minds and avoiding incidents, which provide boiler plate for the local press, before the rest of the system has a reputation for success, is likely desirable.

Lurk -- perhaps -- But the real reason I think has more to do with the user's lifestyle -- sharing bikes is not really of major value to people who work in bluecollar, physical labor jobs

somwhat like ZipCar -- Bike sharing works best with;
1) Tourists
2) Students
3) work-at-home young urban professionals
4) ?

None of the above really occur in large quantities is Dorchester, Roxburry, Hyde Park, Mattapan

[Lurker]

Bikeshare is a low cost alternative means of transportation for the working poor. It's really beneficial to them to be able to avoid the need for more expensive car ownership or be limited to the hours of operation or routes of public transit. It's really not a blue collar vs. white collar thing anymore and arguably many blue collar jobs pay more than white collar jobs these days. It's the service industry jobs which generally pay poorly based on the lack of need for any kind of skilled labor.

Unfortunately, usually to the proud to be underclass punk kids, the bikes are seen as a symbol of outsiders and become a target for peer reinforced stupidity through vandalism. To those not reveling in being a worthless thug in these neighborhoods, having a low cost and high freedom of movement transportation alternative probably would be highly attractive.

[whighlander]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Bikeshare is a low cost alternative means of transportation for the working poor. It's really beneficial to them to be able to avoid the need for more expensive car ownership or be limited to the hours of operation or routes of public transit. It's really not a blue collar vs. white collar thing anymore and arguably many blue collar jobs pay more than white collar jobs these days. It's the service industry jobs which generally pay poorly based on the lack of need for any kind of skilled labor.

Unfortunately, usually to the proud to be underclass punk kids, the bikes are seen as a symbol of outsiders and become a target for peer reinforced stupidity through vandalism. To those not reveling in being a worthless thug in these neighborhoods, having a low cost and high freedom of movement transportation alternative probably would be highly attractive.

Lurk -- when I said Blue Collar -- I was not necessarily talking about assembly lines (largely gone) -- but rather low education level requiired services (janitor, McD server, delivery trucks, loadig dock workers, etc.)

This was to predominantly differentiate their demographics from that of the young professional / student types who do most of the biking around Boston / Cambridge and often have problems with parking the bike

many of the 'Blue Collars" work in a place where parking for a personal bike is not a major concern

[jass]

Originally Posted by Lurker

I honestly think, aside from the density issue, this is why HubWay is reluctant to move into certain parts of Roxbury, Mattapan, and Dorchester. The 'this-is-why-the-rest-of-us-can't-have-nice-stuff-because-they-like-to smash-everything-teenage-thug-crowd' is probably on their minds and avoiding incidents, which provide boiler plate for the local press, before the rest of the system has a reputation for success, is likely desirable.

I dont think its a violence issue at all. Theres bikeshare in Mexico City, and I havent read anything about vandalism...just expansion.

Also, right now they have a limited number of stations available, so it makes sense to focus exclusively on the core.

Even at 100 stations, youre just filling in gaps, geographic expansion would hurt the system. Id rather stick 3 more stations in the BU area rather than Roxbury because theyll get much more use, for example.

On top of that, the demographics arent ideal down there. Students and tourists are a big consideration. Annual (commuter) memberships are great, but when a tourist takes a bike out for 2 hours, thats where the money is.

Have Joe commuter pay once a year and ride for 29 minutes every day is a great social benefit, but zero additional revenue.


And one last point, when you hit poorer areas, you have to deal with the fact that a credit card is required, which many dont have access to.




One last thing, I mentioned that the 2012 30 station expansion is quite small.

In comparison, DC has a 120 station expansion ongoing from this past october to the next one. They added two stations just yesterday.

[HenryAlan]

There is another constraint against expanding to more outlying neighborhoods, quite independent of who lives there or how much money they have. People in Roxbury or JP, if they see cycling as a key element of their transit needs, will likely own a bike. I think bike share is a great idea, but I don't really see it working in a place like Roslindale or Dorchester. I use a bike quite a bit for transportation, but mostly for longer distances, and I want it to be a better bike or, at a minimum, one that is more precisely suited to my own personal needs. Bike share is mostly for the more casual user, not the every day commuter.

[jass]

Originally Posted by HenryAlan

There is another constraint against expanding to more outlying neighborhoods, quite independent of who lives there or how much money they have. People in Roxbury or JP, if they see cycling as a key element of their transit needs, will likely own a bike. I think bike share is a great idea, but I don't really see it working in a place like Roslindale or Dorchester. I use a bike quite a bit for transportation, but mostly for longer distances, and I want it to be a better bike or, at a minimum, one that is more precisely suited to my own personal needs. Bike share is mostly for the more casual user, not the every day commuter.

Bike share isnt about 10 mile commutes. Its about short trips. Its about finding yourself at x and your friends are at y, two miles away. Your bike is at home. Youre not sure what bus to take. Thats where bike share comes in. Or even if you do know what bus youyre taking, but nextbus says its 26 minutes away. Take a shared bike and be there in 9.

Its about one way trips, where you cant say "accio bike" and summon your $2,000 friend.

And if you do want to commute, what if theres no where to store the bike at the office? What if you dont want to worry about theft?

[Ron Newman]

Originally Posted by HenryAlan

People in Roxbury or JP, if they see cycling as a key element of their transit needs, will likely own a bike.

That's just as true for Cambridge and Somerville, but we're both getting Hubway next spring.

[HenryAlan]

Originally Posted by Ron Newman

That's just as true for Cambridge and Somerville, but we're both getting Hubway next spring.

Maybe it's true, but there is another difference, which is density and students. The areas of Cambridge and Sommerville that will get stations are higher density than the outer neighborhoods of Boston. And they also have large student populations. Suppose they put a Hubway station in Roslindale Square. Where does a casual biker go from there? If there was another similar area within a miles distance, and there was a large younger/more transient population, I could see it, but where is the next station?

[Ron Newman]

A Hubway station in Rozzie Square would actually get heavy use, from people using it to reach either Forest Hills station or the Centre/South Street commercial district of Jamaica Plain.

Obviously you first need Hubway in JP before you bring it to Roslindale.

[Shepard]

Brookline is, for some reason, taking a very conservative approach to this. Two stations, one in Coolidge Corner and one in Brookline Village, both to come online sometime after Cambraville does. I'm not sure exactly why - whether they can't find local sponsors, don't want to dip too far into town coffers, or what. In any case, I believe this is shooting the Brookline expansion in the foot. At the very least, stations should be additionally placed at St Mary's, Washington Square, JFK Crossing and Brookline Hills/BHS. I think of Hubway as a largely local transportation option, and without anywhere to go locally, what's the point?

Brookline would also be helped by (Boston) stations at Cleveland Circle and Harvard Ave/Comm (what's taken so long on the latter?)

[HenryAlan]

Originally Posted by Ron Newman

A Hubway station in Rozzie Square would actually get heavy use, from people using it to reach either Forest Hills station or the Centre/South Street commercial district of Jamaica Plain.

Obviously you first need Hubway in JP before you bring it to Roslindale.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but as you point out, it needs to be in JP first. Incrementally, I suspect we will eventually see Hubway moving out in that direction, particularly following the Southwest Corridor, both for Orange Line and Lalemont Trail access. But I don't think there is enough money to do all that at once. My argument is that the South and Western neighborhoods of Boston don't fit into the initial business model of high station concentration enjoying immediate and significant utilization. Zip Car was the same way -- it took some time to reach JP and Roslindale, I'm not sure if it has reached West Roxbury at all.

It's a basic business principle. Invest your money where the highest pay-off will be. Only after you have maxed out that opportunity, invest in everything else, up until the point that the incremental investment loses money. I don't think Hubway would lose money in JP and Roslindale, but they will make more in Cambridge, which is why they are going there first.

[jass]

Broward County B-Cycle (Ft Lauderdale) launched tomorrow with an atrocious system map, as theyve decided to spread 20 stations over an enormous area.

http://broward.bcycle.com/

However, it reminds me that there is still no hubway-destroying snow in Boston, and the November removal was still extra-lame.

DC has installed a further 3 bike-share stations in the past 3 days, putting them at around 130 stations.

[bbfen]

Originally Posted by jass

However, it reminds me that there is still no hubway-destroying snow in Boston, and the November removal was still extra-lame.

As if anyone knows when the weather's going to hell. Had they left them out and we got an early Nor'Easter, there would've been bitching at the lack of planning. Good grief.

(I'm frankly glad they're gone for a while. They seem to attract a clinically retarded subset of foreigners who're a menace.)

[metasyntactic]

For some good news, Brookline just voted to approve the financial plan and contract for Hubway: http://brookline.patch.com/articles/...line-by-spring

[Shepard]

Great -Brookline will have 4 stops. Coolidge Corner and Brookine Village are definite, and I'm guessing the other two will go to Washington Square and JFK Crossing (St Mary's could also be in the running but already has several Boston Hubway stops nearby).

In other news, I came to an interesting realization that there's now a complete bicycle infrastructure (lanes, or signs/sharrows) all the way from Newton Centre to the Public Garden: Beacon to Kenmore and then Comm Ave through Back Bay. The only small gap is along Beacon through the commercial strip of Cleveland Circle.

[jass]

Originally Posted by Shepard

(St Mary's could also be in the running but already has several Boston Hubway stops nearby).

Thats a good thing.

Say you spread your stations out, 1 mile or more apart. And then say you arrive at your destination and all the docks are full. Now what? Riding a mile away to dock defeats the whole purpose of using the bikes...and it leaves a very sour note.

If youre at one station, and you can actually see another one from where youre standing, thats almost never a problem.

[Shepard]

True for smaller stations, but the Brookline ones will be 15 at minimum, and Hubway has been doing a great job at shifting capacity around when needed. With a budget for only four stations, I imagine that Brookline will prioritize coverage over redundancy.

[erikyow]

Does anyone know what kind of cycling infrastructure Fort Lauderdale has now? It's been about seven years since I was there, however I was recently in Naples and Sarasota and was impressed to see the number of bike lanes, even if the entire time I was there I saw a grand total of two people using them (plus one girl riding down the sidewalk). However, I'm just looking at that map and some of those stops, like the one on Sunrise where it duplexes with Route 1. That is an eight lane highway and not somewhere I'd really want to be caught riding a bike, even with a bike lane.

I can see some of the ones along A1A, though I'm surprised they didn't put one or two along Las Olas so that the single station in the Downtown isn't so disconnected, and for access to the shopping and dining along Las Olas.

[Lurker]

Google suggests:
http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdispl.../234-Southeast