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Old 01-17-2018, 09:19 AM   #3681
Equilibria
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Especially a certain airport that was a former Northwest hub. The threads are insane - at least the Boston thread uses logic and critical thinking.
That's the one that gets you? I've just learned to ignore any thread that discusses Delta or Alaska. Those people are crazy. Also, I've learned that literally any new livery is both "hideous" and "vomit-inducing".

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Interesting. Apparently Boston is Icelandair's biggest market for fresh fish shipments (by far) and the value of that shipment is up to $20k on a 757 (or the equivalent of 50-60 economy cabin seats) or $31k on a 767 (or 70-80 seats). Source: https://www.icelandairgroup.is/servl...urfinnsson.pdf

I wonder if the added capacity will benefit passengers with lower fares (especially considering WOW's capacity on the route)? Never flown Icelandair, and I'm hesitant to try WOW, but I have to imagine PAX loads aren't extremely high. I'd definitely prefer Icelandair if the price point was competitive with WOW.
One interesting part of that (especially to you, since IIRC you're from New Bedford) is that the Boston fish processing market includes New Bedford. They're trucking fish up and down Route 24 from Logan. It might be worth the EWB airport manager looking into getting some Icelandair dedicated cargo service, IMHO.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:44 AM   #3682
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fish flights

Is the existing 5400' runway at New Bedford long enough for those international flights?
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:47 AM   #3683
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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One interesting part of that (especially to you, since IIRC you're from New Bedford) is that the Boston fish processing market includes New Bedford. They're trucking fish up and down Route 24 from Logan. It might be worth the EWB airport manager looking into getting some Icelandair dedicated cargo service, IMHO.
Oh it's definitely part of the reason it's interesting to me. New Bedford is the highest grossing port in the nation in terms of its catch, so I'd guess that it makes up a pretty significant portion of the market. I'd love to see them work to entice overseas cargo flights, but I doubt they can handle aircraft large enough to make such trips viable. I think a more likely scenario is more freight rail investment (since wetlands surround the airport and runway expansions are all but impossible) to pull trucks off the road and increase capacity to Logan. But I hope their pitching seafood freight potential as part of any effort to woo potential domestic passenger flights.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:55 AM   #3684
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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That's the one that gets you? I've just learned to ignore any thread that discusses Delta or Alaska. Those people are crazy. Also, I've learned that literally any new livery is both "hideous" and "vomit-inducing".
I think you are referring to Seattle and I was referring to Detroit!
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:10 AM   #3685
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Re: fish flights

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Is the existing 5400' runway at New Bedford long enough for those international flights?
The answer to that depends on trading cargo weight for fuel.

According to Boeing's fact sheet on the 757-200F (Icelandair's cargo plane), EWB-KEF's great circle distance of 2,130 nm is approx. 40% the maximum range of the aircraft. Assuming that you fill the plane near to its maximum take-off weight (MTOW), it requires somewhere between 7,000 and 9,000 feet to take off, depending on which engines Icelandair has installed.

HOWEVER, you might not be anywhere near MTOW. Fish is valuable by weight, which means it may be economical for the airline to send half-full planes half the maximum range. Under those assumptions, I bet 5,400' is enough.

Also, the last round of plans for airport expansion at New Bedford and the construction of a full-on cargo hub assumed extension of both runways into the 8,000' range. That would resolve any issues. That proposal failed because of local opposition to jet noise and impacts to the marsh north of the field. A more limited Iceland-only service would use quieter aircraft and require less or no runway extension, so it might have legs.

Also, Logan has less than zero cargo capacity remaining (literally, since they're at capacity and removing cargo space for Terminal E). MA needs EWB to do more, especially since it's so beautifully positioned for intermodal transfers.

Btw, Amazon also has an airline now, and their big warehouse is conveniently located in Fall River, and Baker's going to want any benefits/subsidies for HQ2 to benefit the whole Commonwealth, so...
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:20 PM   #3686
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Re: fish flights

There's also the question of whether some plane other than the 757 might work better on a short runway, but I bet tracking down all the details of the answer to that is a pain.

Also, for commercial passenger flights, runway length requirements are typically based on the idea that if the most critical engine fails at the most unfortunate possible time, the plane can hit the brakes before takeoff and still be on the runway (except that apparently then the pilots sometimes don't bother to actually use the whole runway). A private pilot in a single engine Cessna 172 generally doesn't bother with such large safety margins. If there's a swamp beyond the runway that the plane might sink into in a worst case engine failure scenario, maybe that's a tolerable risk if it's just a few pilots and a bunch of dead fish. It might be interesting to compare runway construction cost to the insurance premium cost if you explain to the insurance company exactly what risk you want to take on the 5400' runway and they charge a premium to cover that risk.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:23 PM   #3687
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Re: fish flights

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There's also the question of whether some plane other than the 757 might work better on a short runway, but I bet tracking down all the details of the answer to that is a pain.

Also, for commercial passenger flights, runway length requirements are typically based on the idea that if the most critical engine fails at the most unfortunate possible time, the plane can hit the brakes before takeoff and still be on the runway (except that apparently then the pilots sometimes don't bother to actually use the whole runway). A private pilot in a single engine Cessna 172 generally doesn't bother with such large safety margins. If there's a swamp beyond the runway that the plane might sink into in a worst case engine failure scenario, maybe that's a tolerable risk if it's just a few pilots and a bunch of dead fish. It might be interesting to compare runway construction cost to the insurance premium cost if you explain to the insurance company exactly what risk you want to take on the 5400' runway and they charge a premium to cover that risk.
It's not a pain, it's just what Icelandair flies. I doubt they'd buy a new type of cargo plane just to serve New Bedford (although conceivably they could lease or charter one).

There's a long a.net thread on what the take-off distance for a 757 actually is. It's not simple.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:25 PM   #3688
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Re: fish flights

If Icelandair is committed to a plane that turns out to be suboptimal for New Bedford, is there any reason New Bedford should be committed to Icelandair?
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:34 PM   #3689
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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May not be a good idea for Norwegian to do this. Seems like they are taking a hit on Scandinavian Longhaul to USA. Stockholm was worst loss per seat - that's why we haven't seen it yet!

Hartford-Edinburgh must have been brutal since it was cut but Providence-Edinburgh was cut slightly and Newburgh-Edinburgh wasn't touched.

https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/

Cork was the most profitable!!! If Cork's runway was longer they could hub NAI there.
Thinking of things in charts like this, I wonder if their strategy is to try as many new routes as possible to uncover hidden gems and to just cut back all the unprofitable routes after a year. It might be a good way to find new routes with no competition.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:52 PM   #3690
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Re: fish flights

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If Icelandair is committed to a plane that turns out to be suboptimal for New Bedford, is there any reason New Bedford should be committed to Icelandair?
Yeah. They run the cold storage facility at Keflavik Airport. WOW also does belly freight fish between Logan and Iceland, but I suspect the volume is much lower.
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:18 AM   #3691
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

Not huge news, but Azores is replacing the A310s with new A321neos on BOS - PDL. That's a cut in capacity from 244 to 186 seats. The A310s were awfully dated and I'm sure the Neos are much more modern, but that's a decent cut in capacity, and I'm still not sold on single aisle transatlantic flights.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:41 AM   #3692
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Not huge news, but Azores is replacing the A310s with new A321neos on BOS - PDL. That's a cut in capacity from 244 to 186 seats. The A310s were awfully dated and I'm sure the Neos are much more modern, but that's a decent cut in capacity, and I'm still not sold on single aisle transatlantic flights.
Ponta Delgada to Boston is roughly the same distance as Boston to Las Vegas. I can understand if you're a business class passenger not being into a single aisle plane (I am guessing most carriers using them to/from Europe don't have special configurations for their business class). But for most people I don't see a big difference between flying a 752 to Europe in coach vs. flying a 763/333/332/772 to Europe in coach.

Someone had posted a photo of their premium cabin on instagram with the caption "just walked out of 2017 and into 1985 on a jetbridge."
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:57 AM   #3693
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Ponta Delgada to Boston is roughly the same distance as Boston to Las Vegas. I can understand if you're a business class passenger not being into a single aisle plane (I am guessing most carriers using them to/from Europe don't have special configurations for their business class). But for most people I don't see a big difference between flying a 752 to Europe in coach vs. flying a 763/333/332/772 to Europe in coach.

Someone had posted a photo of their premium cabin on instagram with the caption "just walked out of 2017 and into 1985 on a jetbridge."
That's true. Transcon (and LV is essentially transcon) is about as far as I like to go in Narrowbody coach. I'd rather fly Boston to Tokyo in coach on the 787 than Boston to San Francisco on a 737. It's not so much the seats as it is the easy of access to bathrooms and the ability to stand up and move a little bit. I'm mostly in economy, but the wide bodies are more comfortable when you start getting up there in terms of duration. I'd say this route is borderline.
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Old 01-19-2018, 10:58 AM   #3694
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Not huge news, but Azores is replacing the A310s with new A321neos on BOS - PDL. That's a cut in capacity from 244 to 186 seats. The A310s were awfully dated and I'm sure the Neos are much more modern, but that's a decent cut in capacity, and I'm still not sold on single aisle transatlantic flights.
I honestly believe that double isle trans atlantic will go the way of double isle trans continental flights. 20 or so years ago most trans continental flights were on 767s and other wide body planes.

London will probably be the exception (due to Heathrow capacity constraints).
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:24 AM   #3695
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

I flew EWR-San Diego on a United 737.

DO NOT DO THIS IT WAS HELL.

On the other hand, I'd have no issue making this flight on an E-190.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:19 PM   #3696
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I honestly believe that double isle trans atlantic will go the way of double isle trans continental flights. 20 or so years ago most trans continental flights were on 767s and other wide body planes.

London will probably be the exception (due to Heathrow capacity constraints).
I definitely think this will be the case in some markets. Boston will retain a mix because it's a big market, but smaller markets in Europe may serve Boston with next gen single aisle aircraft. You'll also see single aisles between Europe and smaller markets in the U.S. (Providence has a few between the Azores and Norwegian flights). But I definitely agree there will be more narrow body transatlantic flights.

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I flew EWR-San Diego on a United 737.

DO NOT DO THIS IT WAS HELL.

On the other hand, I'd have no issue making this flight on an E-190.
Agreed. It's hell. I was always OK on the Jetblue A320s and 21s to SFO. They're roomier. The E190 is good because it's 2x2 so you have 2 fewer people per row. Hell, even United's dense 777-200 (3-4-3) which it flies between BOS-SFO isn't as bad as the 737 since you have 5 seats per row, per aisle (vs 6 on the 737). Bathroom queues are shorter and there's room to stand when you need a minute.
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Old 01-19-2018, 12:24 PM   #3697
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Agreed. It's hell. I was always OK on the Jetblue A320s and 21s to SFO. They're roomier. The E190 is good because it's 2x2 so you have 2 fewer people per row. Hell, even United's dense 777-200 (3-4-3) which it flies between BOS-SFO isn't as bad as the 737 since you have 5 seats per row, per aisle (vs 6 on the 737). Bathroom queues are shorter and there's room to stand when you need a minute.
Yes no issue with the Jetblue single aisles at all, or the Virgin ones.
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Old 01-20-2018, 03:50 AM   #3698
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Not huge news, but Azores is replacing the A310s with new A321neos on BOS - PDL. That's a cut in capacity from 244 to 186 seats. The A310s were awfully dated and I'm sure the Neos are much more modern, but that's a decent cut in capacity, and I'm still not sold on single aisle transatlantic flights.
I've flown SATA. Their fleet was horribly unreliable due to age. The flights I was on were not exactly packed. They don't have jetbridges at PDL and the airport facilities are tiny. Its a better sized plane for their primary airport.

Now if only they could invest in a freighter or two so they don't have to "lose" your luggage because cargo was more profitable (if you fly with them, bring 3 days worth of essentials in your carry-on)
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Old 01-20-2018, 03:54 AM   #3699
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I flew EWR-San Diego on a United 737.

DO NOT DO THIS IT WAS HELL.

On the other hand, I'd have no issue making this flight on an E-190.
Nonono never united, and not from EWR. NEVER AGAIN.
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Old 01-29-2018, 07:47 PM   #3700
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

Boston-Birmingham on Primera Air is not launching though they said advanced bookings for London-Stansted and Paris are good.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...ngham-14215588

Delta is also increasing Seattle to 3 daily in summer.
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