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Old 10-28-2017, 12:26 PM   #1521
odurandina
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Re: South Station Tower

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Originally Posted by shmessy View Post
I fervently hope they do BOTH. Get the USPS out of South Station to open up what could be signature Fort Point Channel facing real estate (Hello Amazon HQ2 Darkhorse???) and STILL do the NSRL that would benefit the region for centuries.
this.

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More real estate, not more space eating/fanned train tracks. The NSRL would bring more train traffic with fewer space eating tracks.
like you said a moment ago; need both for a long term solution.
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:41 AM   #1522
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Re: South Station Tower

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More real estate, not more space eating/fanned train tracks. The NSRL would bring more train traffic with fewer space eating tracks..
NSRL and South Station berth expansion solve separate commuter rail issues.

SS needs more berthing space that NSRL can provide. Many trains will not through run. You can never get DMU/EMU inner region service without more berths for trains.

NSRL is primarily a network connectivity fix, not a train slot fix.
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:51 AM   #1523
shmessy
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Re: South Station Tower

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Originally Posted by JeffDowntown View Post
NSRL and South Station berth expansion solve separate commuter rail issues.

SS needs more berthing space that NSRL can provide. Many trains will not through run. You can never get DMU/EMU inner region service without more berths for trains.

NSRL is primarily a network connectivity fix, not a train slot fix.
I beg to differ, Jeff, it DIRECTLY affects footprint issues, I agree, perhaps not all, but it would still save alot of important footprint space:

http://www.northsouthraillink.org/capacity/

"....South Station’s 13 tracks currently handle about 320 revenue trips per day, plus an additional 129 non-revenue trips per day that are required primarily due to the inherent inefficiency of a stub end terminal. With this antiquated arrangement, nearly 30% of all train movements in and out of South Station produce no revenue and no transportation benefit, while tying up equipment and crews, and even more importantly, valuable urban land that could be far better used....

How is this performance discrepancy possible? MassDOT’s 2013 Fact Sheet for the South Station Expansion Project is remarkably direct in assessing the root cause of terminal congestion, namely that:

“South Station is a terminal station – literally the end of the line. This means that trains do not pass through but instead have to pull in and pull out of the station. For every one train, two movements are needed – one entering and one leaving the station. This only increases the complexity of managing the station.” [South Station Expansion DEIR]
Plan of proposed development on the US Post Office site adjacent to South Station (Shmessy: Baker's current favorite, non-NSRL proposal), showing that much of this very expensive waterfront site will be devoted to parking trains (new platforms are shown in orange), wiping out about 550,000 sf of useable area, and greatly complicating the construction process. The MBTA conceded in January 2015 that, as a result, the development is unlikely to make any financial contribution toward the cost of South Station Expansion.

Rather than addressing the root cause of this gross inefficiency, the Commonwealth is currently planning to add 7 additional stub-end tracks at South Station and 2 more at North Station, at a staggering cost of about $2 Billion. Leaving aside the cost, the addition of surface tracks simply compounds the inefficiency of the stub-end operations and adds precious little capacity for future growth. Rather than solving the underlying problem, this approach simply compounds it.

The difference between through-service and stub-end service can be compared to the difference between a bucket brigade and a water pipe. In the latter there is nearly continuous flow, with no reversing. In the former, half of the movements are wasted.
Summary of capacity needs and constraints at South Station in Boston. Note that South Station is at capacity with just 320 revenue trips per day, while Philadelphia's downtown through-stations carry more than twice as many revenue trips with less than 1/3 as many tracks, and with capacity to spare. [MBTA South Station Expansion Project DEIR, Oct. 2014, p. 2-6]

We don’t have to look to Philadelphia for confirmation of this. Our own 2-track Red Line stations are able to carry as many passengers per day as our 13 track stub-end terminal at South Station. This can be explained by the “dwell times” and “headways” on the two systems – 25 minutes at the terminal, versus 3 to 4 minutes, or even less, for the run-through subway lines.

It is obvious from this example, and amply confirmed by the experience of the many cities that have built and are building run-through systems, that unification produces far more capacity than terminal expansion. And it does this while reducing the footprint of surface rail and improving service system-wide...."
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:18 AM   #1524
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Re: South Station Tower

SSX is also about reopening Dot Ave and expanding curb space to handle all the new travelers who will need more ingress/waiting/platform/egress space.

The Red"s throughput is also due to 4 level-boarding doors, aisle-facing seats, and lots of standees, while trains from Fitchburg, PVD, or Buzzard's Bay will always need lots of seats that take a long dwell to unload & load.

We may also see increased Amtrak services on heavy Amfleets or Viewliners that will continue to terminate at SS

At NS; Increased NH & Downeasters will terminate on the surface, with a change to Acela at Woburn and the change to GL/OL/CAR at NS.

If I had to pick I would do NSRL, but long term I think we need both.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:58 AM   #1525
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Re: South Station Tower

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlington View Post
SSX is also about reopening Dot Ave and expanding curb space to handle all the new travelers who will need more ingress/waiting/platform/egress space.

The Red"s throughput is also due to 4 level-boarding doors, aisle-facing seats, and lots of standees, while trains from Fitchburg, PVD, or Buzzard's Bay will always need lots of seats that take a long dwell to unload & load.

We may also see increased Amtrak services on heavy Amfleets or Viewliners that will continue to terminate at SS

At NS; Increased NH & Downeasters will terminate on the surface, with a change to Acela at Woburn and the change to GL/OL/CAR at NS.

If I had to pick I would do NSRL, but long term I think we need both.
I fully agree, but by doing the NSRL, doesn't that also save footprint space (and money) on the SSX???

Doing both seems a classic case of:

1 + 1 = 3 for the benefits

and

1 + 1 = 1.5 for the costs and land wasting

The cities of the future understand that and do it. Philly (which in so many other areas has been behind Boston) saw that and is just now beginning to see the benefits.

.
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Old 10-29-2017, 03:08 PM   #1526
JeffDowntown
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Re: South Station Tower

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmessy View Post
I fully agree, but by doing the NSRL, doesn't that also save footprint space (and money) on the SSX???

Doing both seems a classic case of:

1 + 1 = 3 for the benefits

and

1 + 1 = 1.5 for the costs and land wasting

The cities of the future understand that and do it. Philly (which in so many other areas has been behind Boston) saw that and is just now beginning to see the benefits.

.
I think the thought has always been that SSX is the closer in project (although who knows if we'll ever manage to move the post office!). As such, the expansion needs to serve the all the expanded platform needs while waiting for NSRL.

NSRL is probably the longer out project, so it might reduce platform needs for SSX once it comes on line, but SSX will likely already be built at planned configuration. And if you don't build SSX out at full planned configuration South Station chokes before we get NSRL (a 20+ year project at best).

Also, SSX protects against a staged NSRL, particularly if there is staged electrification of commuter rail lines and staged construction of portals. The extra surface platforms can continue to accommodate the diesel traffic needs if electrification roll-out is slow (which seems likely since there is zero planned funding as of now for electrification of lines).
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:39 PM   #1527
Czervik.Construction
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Re: South Station Tower

I knew I would fall for the no real news trap when I opened this thread. I guess I will never learn.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:29 PM   #1528
DZH22
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Re: South Station Tower

Here is real news, pulled from a link Odurandina posted on another thread.

See item #25 here:
http://boston.siretechnologies.com/s...doctype=AGENDA

PDF is here:
http://boston.siretechnologies.com/s...1705241357.PDF


It looks like they are trying to extend the date out to 4/30/2018. That way 5 months from now they can extend it out to 12/31/2018, and keep extending ad nauseam until we are all dead, our children are all dead, our grandchildren are all dead, and humanity ceases to exist on Earth.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:33 PM   #1529
odurandina
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Re: South Station Tower

Statler will be by in a minute to close the thread....

i'll kindly start w/ the festivities....

"Jane you ignorant slut....."

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Old 11-14-2017, 06:12 PM   #1530
stick n move
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Re: South Station Tower

Heres some renders before it gets shut down:


























Plus some South Station Expansion:



















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Old 11-15-2017, 12:47 PM   #1531
BosDevelop
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Re: South Station Tower

If this thing can't get built in the economies over the last several years, I have a hard time believing it will ever be built. Looks like we may have a "Rosenthal's Fenway Center" situation on our hands with this project. Highly disappointing for such a prominent site.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:45 PM   #1532
TheRifleman
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Re: South Station Tower

I want a better design for SSI. But I agree if this doesn't get built in this economic cycle we might not see this built in our lifetime.

SSI I think has much more complex issues than Harbor Garage or Congress St by far.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:47 PM   #1533
stoweker
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Re: South Station Tower

The issue isn't with Hines not wanting to get the project done - they are very invested in moving forward. The issue is that MassDOT / Amtrack / otherstakeholders can't get out of their own way and finalize their agreement with Hines. The delay, as i understand it, is due to finalizing their agreements not due to economics. This thing will get built this cycle, check back in 6 months.
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Old 11-15-2017, 01:56 PM   #1534
Gameguy326
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Re: South Station Tower

Having a tower here makes too much sense to not happen (even if it is an architectural disaster)
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:43 PM   #1535
ShawnA
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Re: South Station Tower

It shouldn't take this long for Massport, the state and MBTA to reach a deal. Hell, they are located in the same damn city. Hines has no problem building on spec, they Just finished a 700 footer on spec in Houston, and in the process of finishing another 600 footer in Denver on spec.
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:32 PM   #1536
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Re: South Station Tower

Amtrak has always been a thorn in the side of the MTA for their projects. East Side Access (LIRR into Grand Central) is held up because of Amtrak access through Sunnyside Yards, the Moynihan Station was held up for years because the MTA, NJT and Amtrak could never agree, and most recently the Penn Station track rebuild that Amtrak had to do (and isn't done with) which snarled commutes for LI and NJ riders all summer.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:10 AM   #1537
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Re: South Station Tower

Isn't construction supposed to start "by the end of 2017" and last 4 years? Thats what was reported in an article on Bldup dated August 25th, thats not that long ago. Any word?
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Old 11-16-2017, 07:52 AM   #1538
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Re: South Station Tower

Does anybody know how the ownership is structure in south station and how many groups are involved with the decision making of this project?

Does Hines actually own the site?
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:16 AM   #1539
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Re: South Station Tower

I believe Hines either owns or leases the air rights and the MBTA owns South Station. Amtrak of course operates trains here and will want to ensure their operations are not impacted much and the USPS of course own the USPS facility. I am not sure how much the USPS is actually involved in any of the deals involving the tower because as far as I could tell they are not impacted by it's construction aside from potential noise and vibration as a result of the building being constructed. The USPS is only an issue for getting the SSX built because they have to find a new home for that to happen.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:06 PM   #1540
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Re: South Station Tower

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The USPS is only an issue for getting the SSX built because they have to find a new home for that to happen.

...and they have to agree on a price for the land where the existing facility is.
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