archBOSTON.org

Go Back   archBOSTON.org > Boston's Built Environment > Transit and Infrastructure

Transit and Infrastructure All things T or civilly engineered within Boston Metro.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-04-2017, 11:50 AM   #81
statler
Moderator
 
statler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Approaching a City
Posts: 7,466
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
And its not like Boston is unfamiliar with silly transportation projects. Did we really need a cutting edge cable stayed bridge to cross the Charles?
We have a history of ridiculous cable stay bridges though...

statler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 12:15 PM   #82
bigpicture7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brighton, MA
Posts: 1,384
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by statler View Post
We have a history of ridiculous cable stay bridges though...

This is a suspension bridge, not a cable-stayed bridge. Sheesh.

Meanwhile, asking if the Zakim's present design is "necessary" is akin to asking whether it's ever necessary to build something for any reason beyond the purely functional. Why not just make all of the city's infrastructure pure/simple concrete post-and-beam...including the Longfellow...and the Charlestown Bridge...and the Northern Ave...

Don't conflate aesthetically pleasing design with unnecessary design (such as this stupid gondola).
bigpicture7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 12:47 PM   #83
West
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 736
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
But public discourse isn’t a finite resource. If anything, this proposal, as ridiculous as it is, can help bring more attention to transit issues. Even if it gets built, then it draws even more attention, since, as a ridiculous shiny object, people will use it, but most will realize its impractical, and wish they cold have a one seat ride on a real transit option.

And given that this is a private project, I don’t see the harm. If it was the MBTA saying they’d build it, I’d be annoyed. But a private company building something silly and flashy with some modest public benefit... cool.

And its not like Boston is unfamiliar with silly transportation projects. Did we really need a cutting edge cable stayed bridge to cross the Charles?
DN, I’m ok with the part of your comment about stimulating public discourse. They’ve done that on this board. However, my feedback to the discourse is that I see this gondola as silly at best, even just as a topic of public discourse. And I am completely not on board with the concept of letting the private sector build it and then we al learn from its failure.

First, back in the original Globe article, they say that Millennium “is willing to cough up as much as $100 million for the elevated project.” Nowhere did they say they’d cover 100% of the project cost, whatever that might turn out to be. So this should NOT be discussed as a fully privately funded project.

Secondly, that same article, just a few paragraphs down, noted that the Millennium subsidiary (Cargo Ventures) that plans on all that development out there in the Seaport, has signed an agreement promising $100M to offset increased traffic. So, the $100M was already committed; now they’re trying to decide how it gets spent. I see nothing wrong with them tossing ideas out there, but all public sector participants should be very willing to shoot their ideas down if they don't cut it (like this one). I haven’t seen their agreement with the city, but I’m sure it doesn’t read, “contribute $100M tailored to serve just Cargo Venture’s needs”, it’s almost certainly more along the lines of “contribute $100M to offset traffic issues resulting from the CV ventures” – that is, traffic issues generally.

As for the idea of seeing it built, and then everyone realizes how impractical it is, and will then advocate for better …. that just isn’t how MA voters/taxpayers are. The more likely response would be “one more boondoggle, so let’s do nothing for ten years, because one good-sized mistake requires a decade of cowardice”.

And seeing Rep Lynch showing even the slightest hint of interest is depressing. I’m going to refrain from posting the monorail video from the Simpsons, but that really sums it up: propose something that can be drawn up as a flashy bauble and the pols salivate. Propose some long-overdue bread and butter connectivity like the Red/Blue connector and they all hide under their desks. Properly done BRT from South Station to Southie would do Lynch's constituents vastly more good than this gondola concept, but the B stands for bus and bus lines are unsexy and so...., we're talking about gondolas. Christ.

We need this round of public discourse to thrash Lynch et al into line, with a big fat resounding “NO!!” And then move on to the public discourse on allocating CV’s $100M to the more obvious fixes for Seaport, as already noted above: get Silver under D (at the least), BRT out Summer with a branch to Logan, a straight shot branch to Southie, and a third branch over to Design Center area, wrest that critical onramp from the Staties, probably upgrade Silver tunnel to light rail and extend it well south of D. All that might not fit the $100M (especially if the light rail conversion is on the to-do list) but that’s not Cargo Venture’s / Millennium’s fault. Just as their contribution wouldn't be obliged to cover the whole gondola cost, they wouldn't be obliged to cover all the fixes needed out there.
West is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 07:10 PM   #84
Charlie_mta
Senior Member
 
Charlie_mta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,201
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
Did we really need a cutting edge cable stayed bridge to cross the Charles?
Actually it was needed from an engineering standpoint, not just aesthetics. The main roadway crosses the Charles at quite an angle, making the crossing a wide one. Another option drawn up early in the CAT planning was a steel arch bridge, again needed for the wide, angled crossing. Fortunately they went with cable stayed instead of steel arch, which would have been an ugly major entrance into downtown.
Charlie_mta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 07:26 PM   #85
JohnAKeith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,156
Re: Summer St. Gondola

How do you know what I need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by datadyne007 View Post
And no, we shouldn't be designing for tourists in the Seaport. The Seaport neighborhood that is coming together is largely all local office & residential. They are the ones who need true, high-functioning mass transit, not a gimmicky gondola.
__________________
"You must really like hearing yourself talk, because you do an awful lot of it whether or not you know anything at all about the topic at hand ..."
JohnAKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 09:22 PM   #86
Gameguy326
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 183
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Should have made it taller. When is Boston going to finally show some guts and go tall with their transit???
Gameguy326 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 11:03 PM   #87
ceo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 111
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpicture7 View Post
This is a suspension bridge, not a cable-stayed bridge. Sheesh.
It's not even that; the "suspension" cables are purely decorative.
ceo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 11:36 AM   #88
Shepard
Senior Member
 
Shepard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,365
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Sinking another $100M into the SL as it's currently routed would be a colossal waste. To my mind the issue isn't the mode it's the connectivity. Dead-ending at South Station stifles all sorts of connections and makes the connection to Back Bay - no to mention anywhere else on the GL and BL - a hellish ordeal.

So, let's talk gondola. Where can the gondola go, beyond South Station, that would improve network connectivity? Essex/Boylston to Chinatown and Boylston stations? (Probably too narrow). Summer Street through FiDi and DTX, over Winter Street to Park Street Station? (Is that even remotely feasible?)

On the other hand, if the gondola simply repeats the mistake of the SL in lacking any connectivity beyond South Station it would be a total and utter waste.
Shepard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 12:48 PM   #89
jass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,053
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepard View Post
Sinking another $100M into the SL as it's currently routed would be a colossal waste. To my mind the issue isn't the mode it's the connectivity. Dead-ending at South Station stifles all sorts of connections and makes the connection to Back Bay - no to mention anywhere else on the GL and BL - a hellish ordeal.
Walking up a flight of steps and boarding a train is hellish?
jass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 01:04 PM   #90
DominusNovus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 682
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by jass View Post
Walking up a flight of steps and boarding a train is hellish?
Yup. If it wasn’t, why would we care about a red-blue connector? Every time you have to change modes of transit, its a hassle. Each trip, just one extra break is two extra steps, two opportunities to rush through a crowd, only to still miss the other train. And if this is your work commute, multiply that by ~250 times a year.

Blech.
__________________
The Goal of Mass Transit should be to get you from Bed to Boss to Bar and back again.
DominusNovus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 01:08 PM   #91
Shepard
Senior Member
 
Shepard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,365
Re: Summer St. Gondola

I'd consider 3 connections tolerable if the distances involves were large and the areas covered highly disparate. But the fact going from Copley to the Seaport requires 3 connections is, yes, hellish.
Shepard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 02:51 PM   #92
jass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,053
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by DominusNovus View Post
Yup. If it wasn’t, why would we care about a red-blue connector? Every time you have to change modes of transit, its a hassle. Each trip, just one extra break is two extra steps, two opportunities to rush through a crowd, only to still miss the other train. And if this is your work commute, multiply that by ~250 times a year.

Blech.
....what?

We care about the red blue connector because they are not connected. You have to transfer to green or orange, creating a 3-vehicle trip.

Silver Line to Back Back is still just two vehicles. Nobody is crying over one transfer.
jass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 03:06 PM   #93
JeffDowntown
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Cove
Posts: 2,569
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by jass View Post
....what?

We care about the red blue connector because they are not connected. You have to transfer to green or orange, creating a 3-vehicle trip.

Silver Line to Back Back is still just two vehicles. Nobody is crying over one transfer.
Silver Line to Back Bay is a 3-vehicle trip.

Silver (1) to Red (2) to Orange or Green (3)
__________________
Jeff H.
Downtown, South Cove
JeffDowntown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 03:40 PM   #94
jass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,053
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDowntown View Post
Silver Line to Back Bay is a 3-vehicle trip.

Silver (1) to Red (2) to Orange or Green (3)
Silver (1) to Purple (2)

You folks are coming off as tourists.
jass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 03:46 PM   #95
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,480
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by jass View Post
Silver (1) to Purple (2)

You folks are coming off as tourists.
a.) Only tourists call Commuter Rail the Purple Line.
b.) Our Commuter Rail is not rapid transit and is not even integrated with the subway system (yet, AFC 2.0 will address this).
__________________
Commuter Rail. Reimagined. Read the report: regionalrail.net
Electrification + High Platforms + Infrastructure + Frequent Service + Free Transfers = #REGIONALRAIL
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 03:48 PM   #96
jass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,053
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by datadyne007 View Post
a.) Only tourists call Commuter Rail the Purple Line.
b.) Our Commuter Rail is not rapid transit and is not even integrated with the subway system (yet, AFC 2.0 will address this).
a) Nobody calls it the purple line but people on obscure internet forums like this one
b) The ride is free to BB, so who gives a shit

https://www.mbta.com/news/1400
https://d3044s2alrsxog.cloudfront.ne...B%20052316.pdf

If you are transferring three times you're doing it wrong.
jass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 04:01 PM   #97
millerm277
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 138
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepard View Post
Sinking another $100M into the SL as it's currently routed would be a colossal waste. To my mind the issue isn't the mode it's the connectivity. Dead-ending at South Station stifles all sorts of connections and makes the connection to Back Bay - no to mention anywhere else on the GL and BL - a hellish ordeal.

So, let's talk gondola. Where can the gondola go, beyond South Station, that would improve network connectivity? Essex/Boylston to Chinatown and Boylston stations? (Probably too narrow). Summer Street through FiDi and DTX, over Winter Street to Park Street Station? (Is that even remotely feasible?)

On the other hand, if the gondola simply repeats the mistake of the SL in lacking any connectivity beyond South Station it would be a total and utter waste.
A gondola will move 2500-4500 (more typically towards the lower end of that, the high number are the biggest ones in existence) people per hour each way. It's going to very reliably give you that nameplate capacity, but not a person more and with no possibility for expansion beyond building a second one.

While it obviously has some utility in things other modes can't do (say, scaling a cliff/extremely steep hill), if it has any place in general urban transit that place would almost certainly be in serving a spur/offshoot who's likely long-term demand falls in those numbers. Unlike a rail line, you can't just keep extending the thing and running more/longer trains later. So you're going to need to be pretty sure that it'll be able to meet whatever you picture "full buildout" demand to be like.

According to recent FMCB presentations, the SL1/SL2 are doing about 1000 passengers an hour at the peak hour.

--------

So the general point is, it would be terrible choice to try to do downtown connections with in my view. It might work in the Seaport. (just in an operational sense, not making a fiscal claim).


Quote:
Originally Posted by jass View Post
Silver (1) to Purple (2)

You folks are coming off as tourists.
At rush hour maybe. At any other time of day, that's not a worthwhile gamble with the low train frequency, IMO.

Last edited by millerm277; 12-05-2017 at 04:34 PM.
millerm277 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 04:03 PM   #98
jass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,053
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
At rush hour maybe. At any other time of day, that's not a worthwhile gamble with the low train frequency, IMO.
If this is a daily activity, you will have the trains memorized.

If it isnt, you will use CityMapper.

There is no point in spending money to facilitate a trip that currently works just fine. There are many more pressing issues.
jass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 07:01 PM   #99
JohnAKeith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,156
Re: Summer St. Gondola

On its own, good enough. But, yes, it can be extended, anywhere there's sky.
The Greenway, maybe?

And, yes, I think there's enough room down Summer Street - there was when they proposed an elevated highway going from Park Street to Winter to Summer to South Station, back in the day ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepard View Post
So, let's talk gondola. Where can the gondola go, beyond South Station, that would improve network connectivity? Essex/Boylston to Chinatown and Boylston stations? (Probably too narrow). Summer Street through FiDi and DTX, over Winter Street to Park Street Station? (Is that even remotely feasible?
__________________
"You must really like hearing yourself talk, because you do an awful lot of it whether or not you know anything at all about the topic at hand ..."
JohnAKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 07:16 AM   #100
JeffDowntown
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Cove
Posts: 2,569
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by jass View Post
Silver (1) to Purple (2)

You folks are coming off as tourists.
I've lived here for 40 years and never made that connection, because it is too low frequency. It is NOT rapid transit.

If you HAPPEN to be at South Station at the magical witching hour when it works, great, otherwise the triple connection is faster and more reliable.
__________________
Jeff H.
Downtown, South Cove
JeffDowntown is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Omni Hotel @ BCEC | Summer St | Seaport 12345 Development Projects 190 10-06-2018 09:37 PM
Dorms become hotel during summer? BostonUrbEx Design a Better Boston 15 11-28-2012 05:48 PM
2028 Summer Olympic Bid Game! LordStanleyCup2011 General 11 05-14-2012 10:44 PM
Green Line D branch: complete summer shutdown czsz Transit and Infrastructure 26 11-13-2007 08:47 AM
Portland - Summer 2006 - Round #2 Corey Greater New England 6 09-23-2006 09:07 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.