archBOSTON.org

Go Back   archBOSTON.org > Boston's Built Environment > Transit and Infrastructure

Transit and Infrastructure All things T or civilly engineered within Boston Metro.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-14-2017, 03:47 PM   #61
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,141
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceo View Post
Here's some more detail I hadn't seen before, page 3 of this newsletter: http://files.constantcontact.com/c56...=1481757906000
That's why they're talking $100 million, with five stations over a 1.4-mile route; remember that stations are the expensive part. You can get rid of the "A St" station really easily; it's a 5-minute walk from South Station anyway.
And if they're talking 40-person cabins, which I think is ludicrous overkill for this route, that makes it a 3S, with 2 track ropes and a haul rope, which is *much* more expensive.
Also, from the link above:

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamusMcFly View Post
If it looks like a duck..... it's an office park.
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2017, 03:53 PM   #62
BosDevelop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 989
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon42 View Post
In all honestly, as a resident of the seaport/fort point, I don't think these theaters will be successful. I have seen very little to no traffic at the Art Society in Pier 4, which was built as a requirement but rarely seems open.
Not really fair to compare the Art Society to a 600 person theater that will have ticketed events. The Pavilion has no trouble drawing thousands of people to dozens of concerts.

My concern is whether this is the right size venue. 600 capacity can be a tricky size. What kind of events does a 600 person venue draw? It's too small for Broadway style productions. Big name comedians often sell out the 1,200 capacity Wilbur. Even the Paradise fits about 900 people. Is there another venue in town in the 600 capacity range? Is there a void for such a size venue? I think I would have rather seen 2 performance spaces, one in the 800-1,000 capacity range which would open up a lot more options and a smaller "community theater." But I am sure they have done their research and know far more about the market than I do....
BosDevelop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2017, 04:47 PM   #63
falcon42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 254
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Agreed but I wouldn't but the BHB Pavillion in the same category. That's a 4-5k capacity seasonal venue that attracts national acts and is on the water. I do wonder what types of acts a 600 seat theater would be good for? Comedians are most likely going to go the the established Laugh Boston or Wilbur as you mentioned.
falcon42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2017, 04:55 PM   #64
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,141
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Again guys, you are talking about Seaport Square, which is not this thread.

Seaport Square thread: http://www.archboston.org/community/...=1282&page=138
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamusMcFly View Post
If it looks like a duck..... it's an office park.
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2017, 05:00 PM   #65
JumboBuc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Camberville
Posts: 1,405
Re: Summer St. Gondola

This isn't the appropriate place for this. Could a mod move this discussion over the to Seaport Square thread? That being said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BosDevelop View Post
Not really fair to compare the Art Society to a 600 person theater that will have ticketed events. The Pavilion has no trouble drawing thousands of people to dozens of concerts.

My concern is whether this is the right size venue. 600 capacity can be a tricky size. What kind of events does a 600 person venue draw? It's too small for Broadway style productions. Big name comedians often sell out the 1,200 capacity Wilbur. Even the Paradise fits about 900 people. Is there another venue in town in the 600 capacity range? Is there a void for such a size venue? I think I would have rather seen 2 performance spaces, one in the 800-1,000 capacity range which would open up a lot more options and a smaller "community theater." But I am sure they have done their research and know far more about the market than I do....
The city has been researching this exact question in depth lately. They came out with a big report about it, and here's a brief Globe write-up.

Basically, Boston has a bunch of big venues for big ticket shows (more than we need, actually) but very few small venues for community performance arts organizations. The city has worked with these groups, and determined that the community needs a 400-600 person venue and a 150 person venue. Thus, this is exactly what we're seeing proposed for Seaport Square.

"Broadway style productions" and "big name comedians" have plenty of venue options in Boston. Your local amateur dance troupe that hopes to sell 500 $20 tickets for its semi-annual performance doesn't. Those are the sort of productions that this venue will host.
JumboBuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2017, 08:10 PM   #66
CSTH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,452
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by datadyne007 View Post
Also, from the link above:

OK I acknowledge that someone actually took the time to create a brochure for this.

But I will never ever consider this an actual proposal. This is even less serious than 'Monorail on the greenway!'. There is literally nothing this does that a bunch of buses and a bus lane can't do better, faster, and cheaper. Its not even that compelling as a PR gimmick.

p.s. I recognize that gondolas can make for really compelling transit in the right context, but this is literally the furthest from that kind of context that I can imagine....we're talking about going straight down a wide road for crying out loud.

p.p.s This thread is now dead to me

p.p.s Ok i concede that a gondola has a tighter turning radius than a bus. And maybe a better view. But that's it.

Edit: Gondolas can also be a great place for a handful of bros to get baked between runs. Which isn't nothing.

Last edited by CSTH; 09-14-2017 at 08:31 PM.
CSTH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2017, 10:09 PM   #67
JohnAKeith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,147
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Gondolas seem to me to be the equivalent of cable cars - of limited use to the regular commuter.

Having said that, I took the cable cars as often as possible to commute when I was in SF but only because my transit pass included the fares.

The brochure above implies that fares for a gondola would be higher than what one of us would want to pay, but I think the idea here is specifically that it would be for commuters in/out of South Boston, too.

I am confused as to why Millennium would want to spend $100 million on a transportation system that doesn't get its workers / visitors actually to its location. I think the renderings are not what would be built - to me, the route would have to go in to the Marine Park and over to where the dry dock is located.
__________________
"You must really like hearing yourself talk, because you do an awful lot of it whether or not you know anything at all about the topic at hand ..."
JohnAKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2017, 11:03 AM   #68
Mongo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 342
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Apparently, there is a full-size model and promotional video out there? Did anyone get spy shots?

Quote:
The idea has gotten real as hell, as Millennium has reportedly produced both a promotional video for it and built a full-scale model of one of the gondola pods to show off to bigwigs and public officials.
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2...nnium-seaport/
Mongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2017, 12:49 PM   #69
Charlie_mta
Senior Member
 
Charlie_mta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,043
Re: Summer St. Gondola

This gondola idea is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time. There is already a busway tunnel through most of the route, which for the cost of the gondola could be improved. I don't get it.
Charlie_mta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2017, 03:44 PM   #70
millerm277
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 126
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_mta View Post
This gondola idea is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time. There is already a busway tunnel through most of the route, which for the cost of the gondola could be improved. I don't get it.
They're property developers. A gondola is a "sexy" thing to tout for their new buildings.

"The buses will be a bit faster and the system will have a little more capacity", may be significant in reality, but it's really hard to make that sound exciting to someone looking to buy a luxury condo.
millerm277 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2017, 11:54 AM   #71
JohnAKeith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,147
Re: Summer St. Gondola

It's a means of transportation for those going to and from the developer's new project and South Station. It's not more; it's not less.

Everyone loosen up your girdles.
__________________
"You must really like hearing yourself talk, because you do an awful lot of it whether or not you know anything at all about the topic at hand ..."
JohnAKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2017, 05:34 PM   #72
cybah
Senior Member
 
cybah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 225
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_mta View Post
This gondola idea is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time. There is already a busway tunnel through most of the route, which for the cost of the gondola could be improved. I don't get it.
I cringe every time I hear a pitch for this.. a BRT line with dedicated lanes down Summer Street could accomplish the same thing, and wouldn't be as ugly as a gondola. You could build it within a year and probably do it for a faction of the cost of a gondola system.
cybah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2017, 06:46 PM   #73
Charlie_mta
Senior Member
 
Charlie_mta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,043
Re: Summer St. Gondola

That would make too much sense.
Charlie_mta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2017, 08:44 PM   #74
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,141
Re: Summer St. Gondola

See page 1 for Summer St BRT, btw. ;-)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamusMcFly View Post
If it looks like a duck..... it's an office park.
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 09:04 AM   #75
Justin7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,301
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Leaving aside ROI/efficiency/etc. I can't be the only one here who would prefer riding in a gondola to riding in a bus, right?

Though some may try to forget it, Boston is a tourist city. Tourists who would never dream of taking a bus would eat this up. And it still provides a connection (and a pleasant ride) for commuters.

Not saying I'm in favor of this without seeing the final plan, but I don't understand the extreme negativity.
__________________
"You cannot take in a whole Boston street with a single glance of the eye and then lose your interest because you have thus taken the edge off future discovery; on the contrary, every step reveals some portion of a building which you could not see before, some change in your vista, and some suggestion of pleasant variety yet to come, which not only keeps your interest alive but heightens it and persuades you to go on."
Justin7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 09:45 AM   #76
DominusNovus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 532
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
Leaving aside ROI/efficiency/etc. I can't be the only one here who would prefer riding in a gondola to riding in a bus, right?

Though some may try to forget it, Boston is a tourist city. Tourists who would never dream of taking a bus would eat this up. And it still provides a connection (and a pleasant ride) for commuters.

Not saying I'm in favor of this without seeing the final plan, but I don't understand the extreme negativity.
I was just about to say something alonge these lines. If I were doing something in the seaport, its almost certainly something recreational, like going to a bar or restaurant. This would be more fun than a bus. Not really viable as a major transit option, but fun.
__________________
The Goal of Mass Transit should be to get you from Bed to Boss to Bar and back again.
DominusNovus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 09:49 AM   #77
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,141
Re: Summer St. Gondola

The negativity & frustration isn't as much about the gondola itself than it is about the further distraction this ridiculous proposal takes from actually making truly substantive transit improvements in the Seaport. This shiny low-function object fills in a gap in the public discourse that is presently open for & should be filled in with high impact, high volume solutions. It's a wasted opportunity to truly address transit needs.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamusMcFly View Post
If it looks like a duck..... it's an office park.
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 09:55 AM   #78
JeffDowntown
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Cove
Posts: 2,401
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by datadyne007 View Post
The negativity & frustration isn't as much about the gondola itself than it is about the further distraction this ridiculous proposal takes from actually making truly substantive transit improvements in the Seaport. This shiny low-function object fills in a gap in the public discourse that is presently open for & should be filled in with high impact, high volume solutions. It's a wasted opportunity to truly address transit needs.
Bingo -- light rail the Silver Line out the Seaport (Dual mode with Airport/Chelsea buses); Fix D Street; Fix Ted Williams access -- rather than building a gimmicky transit toy.
__________________
Jeff H.
Downtown, South Cove
JeffDowntown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 09:55 AM   #79
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,141
Re: Summer St. Gondola

And no, we shouldn't be designing for tourists in the Seaport. The Seaport neighborhood that is coming together is largely all local office & residential. They are the ones who need true, high-functioning mass transit, not a gimmicky gondola.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamusMcFly View Post
If it looks like a duck..... it's an office park.
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2017, 12:10 PM   #80
DominusNovus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 532
Re: Summer St. Gondola

Quote:
Originally Posted by datadyne007 View Post
The negativity & frustration isn't as much about the gondola itself than it is about the further distraction this ridiculous proposal takes from actually making truly substantive transit improvements in the Seaport. This shiny low-function object fills in a gap in the public discourse that is presently open for & should be filled in with high impact, high volume solutions. It's a wasted opportunity to truly address transit needs.
But public discourse isnt a finite resource. If anythig, this proposal, as ridiculous as it is, can help bring more attention to transit issues. Even if it gets built, then it draws even more attention, since, as a ridiculous shiny object, people will use it, but most will realize its impractical, and wish they cold have a one seat ride on a real transit option.

And given that this is a private project, I dont see the harm. If it was the MBTA saying theyd build it, Id be annoyed. But a private company building something silly and flashy with some modest public benefit... cool.

And its not like Boston is unfamiliar with silly transportation projects. Did we really need a cutting edge cable stayed bridge to cross the Charles?
__________________
The Goal of Mass Transit should be to get you from Bed to Boss to Bar and back again.
DominusNovus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Omni Hotel @ BCEC | Summer St | Seaport 12345 Development Projects 134 01-24-2018 08:23 AM
Dorms become hotel during summer? BostonUrbEx Design a Better Boston 15 11-28-2012 06:48 PM
2028 Summer Olympic Bid Game! LordStanleyCup2011 General 11 05-14-2012 11:44 PM
Green Line D branch: complete summer shutdown czsz Transit and Infrastructure 26 11-13-2007 09:47 AM
Portland - Summer 2006 - Round #2 Corey Greater New England 6 09-23-2006 10:07 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.