archBOSTON.org

Go Back   archBOSTON.org > Boston's Built Environment > Development Projects

Development Projects New urban and/or architectural developments in Boston metro.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-03-2018, 03:30 PM   #1241
statler
Moderator
 
statler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Approaching a City
Posts: 7,545
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

I'm not much of a sports nut but it's hard to look at the areas around Fenway Park and the Garden and think those places are a waste of space/poor urbanism. They are both very active on non-event days and lot of that is due to people going to the venues built for event days. It's a win/win.

Now if they proposed surrounding the new stadium with parking lots, yeah, absolutely not. If you want an urban stadium, you are going to have to sacrifice your tailgating, sorry.
statler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 04:01 PM   #1242
stick n move
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Dorchester
Posts: 4,572
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Exactly. I went to a job fair for military vets at Fenway a year ago where they also give you free tickets. Things like that are the small ways these places interact with the community that you dont see.
stick n move is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 03:10 PM   #1243
tangent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,535
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by statler View Post
I'm not much of a sports nut but it's hard to look at the areas around Fenway Park and the Garden and think those places are a waste of space/poor urbanism. They are both very active on non-event days and lot of that is due to people going to the venues built for event days. It's a win/win.

Now if they proposed surrounding the new stadium with parking lots, yeah, absolutely not. If you want an urban stadium, you are going to have to sacrifice your tailgating, sorry.

Which is exactly why they should locate the stadium where it can be surrounded by city streets at least on one side...
tangent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 03:16 PM   #1244
JANAM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 183
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Now if they proposed surrounding the new stadium with parking lots, yeah, absolutely not. If you want an urban stadium, you are going to have to sacrifice your tailgating, sorry.[/quote]


Soccer fans don't tailgate, typically gather in local bars and restaurants before and sometimes after matches.
JANAM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 03:25 PM   #1245
datadyne007
Senior Member
 
datadyne007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Everett, MA
Posts: 8,565
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by JANAM View Post
Soccer fans don't tailgate, typically gather in local bars and restaurants before and sometimes after matches.
At Gillette we do (there's a very robust tailgate culture at Gillette), but it's only because there's the opportunity (read: massive parking lots) to do it. You're correct that everywhere else in the world that has an urban stadium gathers at a bar pre-match, but statler is also correct that Revs fans are going to have to give up tailgating culture and shift to a pre-match bar and March to the Match. As I've said in the past, I have no problem dropping it for an urban stadium but there are many fans I know who are dead set against giving up tailgating and want massive parking lots around a Boston stadium.
__________________
Commuter Rail. Reimagined. Read the report: regionalrail.net
Electrification + High Platforms + Infrastructure + Frequent Service + Free Transfers = #REGIONALRAIL
datadyne007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 05:08 PM   #1246
mass88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,851
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Tailgating is an American thing and should be embraced by MLS fans its something different than what the European soccer teams do. To each their own, but the whole march to the match thing is kind of lame. I go to 5 to 6 Patriots games every year and for some reason am always nearby a group of foreign fans (usually from Europe) and they are always blown away by how great the American tailgate culture is. It will be unfortunate if that has to go away if the Revs get their own stadium in an urban area. Yes, it will be great to get a stadium better suited for soccer, but losing the tailgating will stink. While the crowds may be smaller than Patriots games, Revs fan get after it in the parking lots before the games and there is a solid tailgating scene.
mass88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2018, 05:50 PM   #1247
stick n move
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Dorchester
Posts: 4,572
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

The bay state expo site could have kept tailgating, had a patriots place, near transit, the waterfront, etc. 93 sucks already though and that rotary is a disaster too so it would have been a mess. A stadium that relies massively on transit with park n rides, ubers, etc.. to get there is the only viable solution to not cause a catastrophe if its in city limits. There could have been the tail gate culture at bay state at the expense of everything else, I dont see it anywhere within the city. What about Allston yards next to the double tree? Storrow, the pike, Memorial drive, plus the T, and central sq red line not far up the street.

Bus, taxi, uber, or even walking wouldnt be too bad from the red line. Then the future west station is right there and the 3 road arteries.


Last edited by stick n move; 12-04-2018 at 06:04 PM.
stick n move is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 09:46 AM   #1248
HenryAlan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Rozzie Square
Posts: 1,769
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by mass88 View Post
Tailgating is an American thing and should be embraced by MLS fans its something different than what the European soccer teams do. To each their own, but the whole march to the match thing is kind of lame. I go to 5 to 6 Patriots games every year and for some reason am always nearby a group of foreign fans (usually from Europe) and they are always blown away by how great the American tailgate culture is. It will be unfortunate if that has to go away if the Revs get their own stadium in an urban area. Yes, it will be great to get a stadium better suited for soccer, but losing the tailgating will stink. While the crowds may be smaller than Patriots games, Revs fan get after it in the parking lots before the games and there is a solid tailgating scene.
Really, tailgating is an American suburb thing. I've been to games for a variety of top tier pro sports in a variety of settings. When there is a big parking lot, there is tail gating, regardless of sport. When there is no such parking facility, there are bars and restaurants within easy walking distance. To me the question, then, is which setting will work best for attracting soccer fans, not which setting will work best for tailgating. Tailgating is a non-issue unless soccer fans cannot have a quality experience without it.
HenryAlan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 10:04 AM   #1249
Ruairi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 217
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by mass88 View Post
Tailgating is an American thing and should be embraced by MLS fans its something different than what the European soccer teams do. To each their own, but the whole march to the match thing is kind of lame. I go to 5 to 6 Patriots games every year and for some reason am always nearby a group of foreign fans (usually from Europe) and they are always blown away by how great the American tailgate culture is. It will be unfortunate if that has to go away if the Revs get their own stadium in an urban area. Yes, it will be great to get a stadium better suited for soccer, but losing the tailgating will stink. While the crowds may be smaller than Patriots games, Revs fan get after it in the parking lots before the games and there is a solid tailgating scene.
the whole march to the match thing is actually not very European or South American. It's more of a MLS thing. MLS supporters groups looked at the behavior of fringe European ultras groups and made them main stream. Tailgating is great fun but I'd happily switch that for a few beers in a pub with my mates and a walk to a stadium (not a march being directed by some bellend with a bull horn and a huge flag).
Ruairi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 10:17 AM   #1250
tangent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,535
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by stick n move View Post
The bay state expo site could have kept tailgating, had a patriots place, near transit, the waterfront, etc. 93 sucks already though and that rotary is a disaster too so it would have been a mess. A stadium that relies massively on transit with park n rides, ubers, etc.. to get there is the only viable solution to not cause a catastrophe if its in city limits. There could have been the tail gate culture at bay state at the expense of everything else, I dont see it anywhere within the city. What about Allston yards next to the double tree? Storrow, the pike, Memorial drive, plus the T, and central sq red line not far up the street.

Bus, taxi, uber, or even walking wouldnt be too bad from the red line. Then the future west station is right there and the 3 road arteries.

Fenway is a disaster transportation wise. Green line gets seriously overcrowded and streets get gridlocked before and after games... not sure if that supports or undermines what you are saying, but if it is grandfathered in people just deal with it as the way it is. Inevitably events with 20,000 people are going to cause traffic/congestion wherever it is... still I think it is worth it, but people that live nearby and don't like soccer are going to have other opinions.

Last edited by tangent; 12-05-2018 at 02:15 PM.
tangent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 02:22 PM   #1251
kingofsheeba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Charlestown
Posts: 241
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Allston wouldn't work because the neighbors would throw a shitfit. I think the best location still would've been Suffolk Downs (close to Rt.1/Blue Line) and you could still tailgate. But I think datadyne said it best. With the new location of this stadium, tailgating will have to be jettisoned.

Getting back to the topic of the proposed site, you read the comments on social media. There are the clear idiotic, NIMBY, knee jerk reactions that you would expect but not as many as you might think. Which is a major silver lining and a signals hope that this can go through. Because there's also a ton of support for this. Ultimately it depends on the design of the project and if if can meet the needs of the connection neighborhoods and what the long term ROI can bring. If done right, this can help to create a whole new neighborhood spearheaded by the stadium.

Fenway is always going to be a fustercluck no matter what they do to that neighborhood and I'm so glad that they're not adding more seats inside the park this off-season. Ultimately, the attitude of the future site of the Revs and where the Krafts finally decide to build this in the city, depends on the future of Fenway and the surrounding neighborhoods as well as the rebuilt Garden. If the added capacity can bring revenue without causing neighborhood disruptions, then the Revs have a shot in the city.
kingofsheeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 04:16 PM   #1252
tangent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,535
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

My point was that you can't integrate a stadium into a neighborhood without disruptions... but that doesn't mean that you therefore choose a location that isn't actually in any neighborhood.
tangent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 10:34 PM   #1253
JohnAKeith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,175
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

What is your definition of "NIMBY"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofsheeba View Post
Allston wouldn't work because the neighbors would throw a shitfit. I think the best location still would've been Suffolk Downs (close to Rt.1/Blue Line) and you could still tailgate. But I think datadyne said it best. With the new location of this stadium, tailgating will have to be jettisoned.

Getting back to the topic of the proposed site, you read the comments on social media. There are the clear idiotic, NIMBY, knee jerk reactions that you would expect but not as many as you might think. Which is a major silver lining and a signals hope that this can go through. Because there's also a ton of support for this. Ultimately it depends on the design of the project and if if can meet the needs of the connection neighborhoods and what the long term ROI can bring. If done right, this can help to create a whole new neighborhood spearheaded by the stadium.

Fenway is always going to be a fustercluck no matter what they do to that neighborhood and I'm so glad that they're not adding more seats inside the park this off-season. Ultimately, the attitude of the future site of the Revs and where the Krafts finally decide to build this in the city, depends on the future of Fenway and the surrounding neighborhoods as well as the rebuilt Garden. If the added capacity can bring revenue without causing neighborhood disruptions, then the Revs have a shot in the city.
JohnAKeith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 06:39 PM   #1254
tangent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,535
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAKeith View Post
What is your definition of "NIMBY"?
I believe he said "idiotic, NIMBY" as opposed to the open pit coal mine "not in my backyard" or the paint factory "not in my backyard".

Personally, I think it is perfectly legitimate to not want a sports stadium in close proximity to your neighborhood. Or if you live in Salem to hate the month of October. Just because something negatively affects you in some way doesn't mean it isn't overall good for the community and worth weighing the pros and cons.
tangent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 01:01 AM   #1255
kingofsheeba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Charlestown
Posts: 241
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangent View Post
I believe he said "idiotic, NIMBY" as opposed to the open pit coal mine "not in my backyard" or the paint factory "not in my backyard".

Personally, I think it is perfectly legitimate to not want a sports stadium in close proximity to your neighborhood. Or if you live in Salem to hate the month of October. Just because something negatively affects you in some way doesn't mean it isn't overall good for the community and worth weighing the pros and cons.
This^^^

Nobody is saying that there aren't concerns. Living in the city can be stressful and it's okay to have these discussions. My point was that we've come a long way from when 1970 when Louise Day Hicks ran the Sullivans out of Boston down to Foxboro when they tried to build that stadium in South Boston. Shit, we've come a long way from 1997 when Menino and Weld told Kraft to take a hike.
kingofsheeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 12:59 PM   #1256
tangent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,535
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

It is a bit strange how stadiums with their very infrequent large scale events (and the casino while we are talking about traffic/transportation concerns holding back development) elicit such a negative neighborhood response. But other economic development activities just don't get the same attention to traffic concerns. The Fenway, the Seaport, area around North Station, North End and many areas of the city get packed with pedestrians and traffic many different times and people complain about it in the sense of asking for more infrasructure spending to smooth the flows of people and traffic, but not so much in terms of saying it is a bad thing to have so many people in the city.
tangent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2018, 05:48 AM   #1257
Arenacale
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 68
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

It's the large scale events that are the most disruptive, though. If other developments create an increase of people and traffic, it's generally more of a steady stream that might be more congested than prior, but it's also not going to be 25,000 people all entering and leaving at the exact same time.

I think it's worth noting that the two major sports venues in the city proper - Fenway and the Garden, have been on their parcels (or thereabouts) for almost a century or more, so the neighborhoods around them have had time to develop and adjust to the influxes of people around events (also - there were far fewer cars when they were built!). Simply dropping a major stadium in a densely settled neighborhood without considering consequences to the people living there is, I think, foolish and will always be seen by the residents as disrespectful.
Arenacale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2018, 12:04 PM   #1258
kingofsheeba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Charlestown
Posts: 241
Re: Site in Hub top choice for a soccer stadium

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arenacale View Post
It's the large scale events that are the most disruptive, though. If other developments create an increase of people and traffic, it's generally more of a steady stream that might be more congested than prior, but it's also not going to be 25,000 people all entering and leaving at the exact same time.

I think it's worth noting that the two major sports venues in the city proper - Fenway and the Garden, have been on their parcels (or thereabouts) for almost a century or more, so the neighborhoods around them have had time to develop and adjust to the influxes of people around events (also - there were far fewer cars when they were built!). Simply dropping a major stadium in a densely settled neighborhood without considering consequences to the people living there is, I think, foolish and will always be seen by the residents as disrespectful.
I don't know what else to say. This is part of living in a city. What's disrespectful is when I didn't hear a peep out of these same snowflakes when Amazon wanted to move its headquarters into Boston. Amazon. Where the workers are run into the ground and treated like galley slaves. Not one peep.


You mention Fenway and the Garden. Fenway is now at 39,720 (not sure if that's the actual capacity). The Garden is also expanding with the new Hub on Causeway. Both arenas are now adding capacity in their venues. Fenway will probably add more seats somewhere in the park at some point.


No towers, no stadiums, no shadows, no picketing hotel workers. I'd like to ask these people what they think makes up a good city. Maybe take them to Seattle, Chicago, Denver, Portland and other places where stadiums exist. I'm sure the residents in those cities would get a kick out of what concerns us as residents.
kingofsheeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Somerville Soccer Stadium chumbolly Development Projects 592 11-18-2014 01:04 PM
Minor League Stadium proposed in Charlestown KentXie Development Projects 10 07-31-2007 07:18 AM
Cool Site of the Day statler General 0 01-24-2007 09:51 AM
Interesting Site Sofla951 Boston Architecture & Urbanism 2 11-13-2006 04:42 PM
2 groups consider a minor league stadium near BC High statler Development Projects 7 07-21-2006 08:37 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.