Transportation in Boston

[Matthew]

Right - I was talking about purely commuter rail parking lots. Several rapid transit lots do get full. I don't have access to historical data (if anyone does, please let me know).

[F-Line to Dudley]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Right - I was talking about purely commuter rail parking lots. Several rapid transit lots do get full. I don't have access to historical data (if anyone does, please let me know).

http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/do...ook%202010.pdf

Ch. 8 of the Blue Book has a comprehensive parking inventory of every single lot in the system, but they do not have any usage tracking. I suspect that's because the antiquated and oft-subverted parking collection system is a very tough nut for comprehensive data collection outside of the garages with automated ticket gates. I'm sure they have the stats, but there's enough holes and manual-calculation gaps in the per-station figures that it's probably not yet accurate enough for a Blue Book listing.


Yes, big difference between rapid transit and CR. Both for parking fare collection (no scattershot honor system on those rapid transit garages) and headway-driven demand.

Re: Alewife...the occupancy was depressed slightly by the interminable construction on the access road that's been going on the last 2 years. The secondary garage egress has been blocked a lot of the time by construction equipment. That's cleared out now and I've noticed the "Lot Full" sign lit up more often so the dip appears to be circumstantial. Remains to be seen what the crushing rate increase is going to do, but that'll affect CR lots a lot more than rapid transit. It may even divert more drivers to the rapid transit lots on service value-for-money if they're going to be paying that much more, which'll mute the overall hit the subway lots take while driving a much bigger gulf in the CR-vs.-subway lot utilization rates.


Hopefully they do get better automated collection on the unmanned lots, because that's such an essential revenue piece of the pie that it very much needs to get reported for public perusal in the Blue Book.

[HenryAlan]

This is entirely anecdotal, but what I've observed on Needham Line stations is that parking lot utilization dropped drastically when they raised the price a few years back. So much so, in fact, that I'm sure the revenue went down as a result of the price increase. If this is generally the case, as Matthew's research seems to indicate, then they need to lower the price of parking in order to encourage ridership.

I don't think it matters as much on a line like Needham, where the stations have fairly large walking distance populations. But for the more suburban lines, I agree with Whiglander, that parking is an absolute necessity.

[whighlander]

Originally Posted by F-Line to Dudley

http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/do...ook%202010.pdf

Ch. 8 of the Blue Book has a comprehensive parking inventory of every single lot in the system, but they do not have any usage tracking. I suspect that's because the antiquated and oft-subverted parking collection system is a very tough nut for comprehensive data collection outside of the garages with automated ticket gates. I'm sure they have the stats, but there's enough holes and manual-calculation gaps in the per-station figures that it's probably not yet accurate enough for a Blue Book listing.


Yes, big difference between rapid transit and CR. Both for parking fare collection (no scattershot honor system on those rapid transit garages) and headway-driven demand.

Re: Alewife...the occupancy was depressed slightly by the interminable construction on the access road that's been going on the last 2 years. The secondary garage egress has been blocked a lot of the time by construction equipment. That's cleared out now and I've noticed the "Lot Full" sign lit up more often so the dip appears to be circumstantial. Remains to be seen what the crushing rate increase is going to do, but that'll affect CR lots a lot more than rapid transit. It may even divert more drivers to the rapid transit lots on service value-for-money if they're going to be paying that much more, which'll mute the overall hit the subway lots take while driving a much bigger gulf in the CR-vs.-subway lot utilization rates.


Hopefully they do get better automated collection on the unmanned lots, because that's such an essential revenue piece of the pie that it very much needs to get reported for public perusal in the Blue Book.

F-line -- it was the economic downturn -- aka the "Great Recession" that opened up the parking at Alewife -- the same economic downturn eased-up the rush hour travel on Rt-128 and opened-up access to suburban ofice space.

The boom occuring in Kendall has boosted Alewife parking demand -- but it's not quite back to where it was at the peak.
A couple of days ago at Alewife I noticed a new sign at Cambridge Discovery Park (previously the site of Arthur D. Little) - "60,000 to 500,000 sq. ft. will build to suit"

But out here in the inner burbs -- things are still in the recovering phase -- there is still a lot of vacant space in Waltham with "For Lease" and "Available" signs visible from Rt-128.

[Matthew]

Speaking of the Blue Book, I'm waiting for this year's version to come out. It's supposed to be around this time of year...

Originally Posted by HenryAlan

This is entirely anecdotal, but what I've observed on Needham Line stations is that parking lot utilization dropped drastically when they raised the price a few years back. So much so, in fact, that I'm sure the revenue went down as a result of the price increase. If this is generally the case, as Matthew's research seems to indicate, then they need to lower the price of parking in order to encourage ridership.

I don't think it matters as much on a line like Needham, where the stations have fairly large walking distance populations. But for the more suburban lines, I agree with Whiglander, that parking is an absolute necessity.

Needham ridership is kind of weird. It spiked in 2008, if the T's numbers can be believed. It's also weird since the line backtracks before heading downtown, which slows it down and makes it less attractive to riders coming from Needham Heights.

Which leads me to my next point: reducing the price on parking doesn't necessarily generate more riders. As it is, most lots are absurdly cheap, especially by downtown standards. If the product being offered (frequency of rides to downtown Boston) is crummy, then people will be disinclined to buy it, even if it gets a little cheaper. As F-line says, the subway offers a much more reliable, frequent service than the commuter rail, and people naturally are attracted to those stations when possible.

[HenryAlan]

Originally Posted by Matthew

If the product being offered (frequency of rides to downtown Boston) is crummy, then people will be disinclined to buy it, even if it gets a little cheaper. As F-line says, the subway offers a much more reliable, frequent service than the commuter rail, and people naturally are attracted to those stations when possible.

Well sure, I think most of us recognize that the Needham Line would make far more sense as rapid transit. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. The decline that you noted, by the way, coincides with the parking rate doubling. It makes a difference. If the parking + fare is close to equivalent with parking downtown, commuter rail becomes less attractive. So take somebody in Roslindale or West Roxbury. It's $13 a day to park and ride on the Needham Line. Downtown garages are price competitive with this.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by HenryAlan

Well sure, I think most of us recognize that the Needham Line would make far more sense as rapid transit. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. The decline that you noted, by the way, coincides with the parking rate doubling. It makes a difference. If the parking + fare is close to equivalent with parking downtown, commuter rail becomes less attractive. So take somebody in Roslindale or West Roxbury. It's $13 a day to park and ride on the Needham Line. Downtown garages are price competitive with this.

Do you have more specific info on the price increase and ridership decline? Right now it's $4 to park and that's a pretty typical rate around the network. Also, according to the MBTA website, Needham commuter parking lots are being used at a pretty high rate (> 75% occupancy).

Is $13 a day really price comparable with downtown Boston? Financial District parking garages seem to run into the mid-$30s for a day.

The morning trains from Needham Heights to South Station are scheduled to run for 40-45 minutes duration, although they do seem to be consistently 3-5 minutes late on average (from real-time data). Driving from the Needham Heights area to the Financial District can take between 30-45 minutes (based on traffic data) depending on the hour, plus time to find parking.

I assume you are living in that area, does that square with your experience?

[whighlander]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Do you have more specific info on the price increase and ridership decline? Right now it's $4 to park and that's a pretty typical rate around the network. Also, according to the MBTA website, Needham commuter parking lots are being used at a pretty high rate (> 75% occupancy).

Is $13 a day really price comparable with downtown Boston? Financial District parking garages seem to run into the mid-$30s for a day.

The morning trains from Needham Heights to South Station are scheduled to run for 40-45 minutes duration, although they do seem to be consistently 3-5 minutes late on average (from real-time data). Driving from the Needham Heights area to the Financial District can take between 30-45 minutes (based on traffic data) depending on the hour, plus time to find parking.

I assume you are living in that area, does that square with your experience?

Mathew -- don't use the visible advertised prices as a true measure of parking downtown -- most garages offer a discount for people arriving early and most offer monthly parking passes with considerable discounts

While there is some variation depending on which garage -- I think that daily parking during working hours using a monthly pass probably would be closer to $15 to $20

Then for a bit more walking there is the Boston Common Parking Garage ( $310 per month -- 24 hours per day M-F or $360 24X7 )

[whighlander]

Originally Posted by HenryAlan

Well sure, I think most of us recognize that the Needham Line would make far more sense as rapid transit. But it's not going to happen anytime soon. The decline that you noted, by the way, coincides with the parking rate doubling. It makes a difference. If the parking + fare is close to equivalent with parking downtown, commuter rail becomes less attractive. So take somebody in Roslindale or West Roxbury. It's $13 a day to park and ride on the Needham Line. Downtown garages are price competitive with this.

Henry -- this is particularly true for off-peak when parking in a downtown garage for an evening event can be quitr reasonable

For instance my wife and I used to take the T to the MFA but now we usually drive unless we plan to do a lot of walking through the Victory Garden, Newbury Street, etc.

Its really all about the $ combined with the added inconvenience of the T:
1) by T
a) Drive to Alewife $7 for parking
b) board Red Line $4 per person round trip fare $8 total
c) change at Park St
d) arrive at MFA -- $15 2 people R/T and about 60 minutes R/T
2) by car
a) drive from Lexington -- about 30 minutes each way -- 60 minutes R/T
b) park at MFA lot with MFA members' discount -- $14

with the new T pricing we are even less likely to use it

To encourage use of the T when the Alewife Garage is empty - - the T should drop the parking rate to $3 after 5 PM and on weekends -- get rid of the attendent and replace the booth with a Charlie Card reader and of course a Charlie Card kiosk

[HenryAlan]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Do you have more specific info on the price increase and ridership decline? Right now it's $4 to park and that's a pretty typical rate around the network. Also, according to the MBTA website, Needham commuter parking lots are being used at a pretty high rate (> 75% occupancy).

Is $13 a day really price comparable with downtown Boston? Financial District parking garages seem to run into the mid-$30s for a day.

The morning trains from Needham Heights to South Station are scheduled to run for 40-45 minutes duration, although they do seem to be consistently 3-5 minutes late on average (from real-time data). Driving from the Needham Heights area to the Financial District can take between 30-45 minutes (based on traffic data) depending on the hour, plus time to find parking.

I assume you are living in that area, does that square with your experience?

I live in Roslindale, but sometimes board at Highland in West Roxbury. Both stations have less than half of their parking spaces occupied when I board, which is at 8:20 or 8:25, depending on the station. I doubt significantly more cars arrive after that. Both station lots are only about a third full when I return in the evening. I work in the Back Bay, there are some lots in the South End that charge $11. The train is faster, it is my preference, but the parking lots (which are small to begin with) show a low utilization, which I suspect is connected to the price.

Essentially, for people who can't walk to the station, the choice is between paying more money for speed (via transit) or paying more time to save a couple bucks via driving. It is probably not the most useful example for the entire system.

[Matthew]

Yes, I noticed that on the website as well. The Boston stations on the Needham line only see about half occupancy in their lots. The Needham stations get more cars, for some reason. That is curious. Maybe more people walk in W. Roxbury and Roslindale?

[cozzyd]

Originally Posted by whighlander

Mathew -- don't use the visible advertised prices as a true measure of parking downtown -- most garages offer a discount for people arriving early and most offer monthly parking passes with considerable discounts

While there is some variation depending on which garage -- I think that daily parking during working hours using a monthly pass probably would be closer to $15 to $20

Then for a bit more walking there is the Boston Common Parking Garage ( $310 per month -- 24 hours per day M-F or $360 24X7 )

Right, but commuters also usually get a transit pass....

[HenryAlan]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Yes, I noticed that on the website as well. The Boston stations on the Needham line only see about half occupancy in their lots. The Needham stations get more cars, for some reason. That is curious. Maybe more people walk in W. Roxbury and Roslindale?

I think that is very likely (again, going only by my own observations, no data to back this up). The population density within a half mile radius of the stations in Roslindale and West Roxbury is quite high, and can easily support walking for a large number of riders. People living further away and using the 'T might prefer buses to Forest Hills. This line could easily support HRRT conversion, which would also involve re-routing some of the buses for shorter rides to transfer points.

[czsz]

A lot of people walk to the Needham stations, too, but Needham borders towns with no or less convenient transit (I'm looking at you, Dover) who also use the lots.