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Old 05-22-2013, 01:24 PM   #121
Equilibria
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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Originally Posted by TheRifleman View Post
Besides the last couple of years the Jacob brothers have been very fortunate owning the Garden.
Hockey was a complete mess during the strike season and the Bruins game were barely selling 1/2 their tickets until they made that amazing NHL Stanely Cup run. The only thing keeping the Jacob Brothers from not going bankrupt have been the Celtics since most of their games fill most of the arena.

Also didn't the city give the Jacob Brothers this land for free to develop 10 years ago?

Overall the Jacob Brothers are very cheap (just ask their employees at Delaware North)

If the Boston Celtics had savvy business owners they would have put the Jacob Brothers in a bad spot when Hockey was on Strike and forced them to sell the Garden to the Celtics organization or the Celtics Move. No Garden no games. This would have bankrupted the Jacob Brothers. I'm sure the Celtics were probably under sometype of Contract to not consider this option.

But overall Disney on Ice or the Ciricus is not going to cover their expenses on this building if the Celtics moved as Hockey was on strike.
Umm... you don't have any idea of any of that is true. In any case, the Celtics would have been pretty obviously bluffing had they done that, since the NHL could resume at any time and they would have nowhere else to play. What, were they going to move to Seattle?
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:05 PM   #122
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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If the real money is in concessions (which I agree with) how is the current arrangement a good deal for the Celtics for the long term?
How is the "real" money in concessions. The Celtics average ticket price last year was $73. The average fan isn't eating $73 worth of food/drink. Yeah, there might be some drunk yahoos that have 9 beers and 2 hot dogs and get to the $73 in concessions. But all the kids, older fans, women, are going to have trouble buying that much food. And the Celtics get all the apparel sales.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:09 PM   #123
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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Umm... you don't have any idea of any of that is true. In any case, the Celtics would have been pretty obviously bluffing had they done that, since the NHL could resume at any time and they would have nowhere else to play. What, were they going to move to Seattle?
I'm saying there was opportunity for the Celtics management to make a move but they didn't.
The Garden would have been empty if the Celtics threatened to leave or play somewhere else. (possibly Worcester, Providence, or go after their own Boston stadium)
The Celtics alone were keeping Delaware North a float just from the games and concessions back in 2004-2005 NHL lockout?
Even when the Bruins came back from the lockout.... Hockey was really struggling.
I also believe they get 10 Million for the naming rights for TDGarden. We'll if nobody is renting out the garden do you think TDBank is going to pay 10 Million for naming rights each year.

I'm just surprised that the Celts Management did not make a move.

Don't get me wrong Hockey has taken off the last couple of years but seriously there was always more people spending & going more to the Celtics games even when they were just average.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:15 PM   #124
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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The Garden would have been empty if the Celtics threatened to leave or play somewhere else. (possibly Worcester, Providence, or go after their own Boston stadium).
So, threaten to leave for a town that can't support a major league franchise or move into a building that wouldn't be ready for 2+ years. That would be a better plan than staying in their rent free building conveniently located at the middle of a major media market?
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:25 PM   #125
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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So, threaten to leave for a town that can't support a major league franchise or move into a building that wouldn't be ready for 2+ years. That would be a better plan than staying in their rent free building conveniently located at the middle of a major media market?
All I'm saying is the Celtics Management should have put Delaware North in situation either sell to us or go Bankrupt over the next 2 years. Delaware North was always at the mercy of the Celtics because they generated most of the Revenue back in 2004 thru 2007

Bottom line the Celtics could have owned the Garden, all the concessions to the Garden in the end along with the naming rights of the building.
That is worth the gamble when you see the ownership struggling.

Last edited by TheRifleman; 05-22-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:38 PM   #126
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Rifle, you're just throwing shit at the wall. The Celtics are owned by senior partners at arguably the most successful private equity firm in the world. Something tells me they ran the numbers...
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:19 PM   #127
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Re: TD Garden Towers

The point I made about concessions being the real money is more based on ROI. Cost to operate vs. revenue. The concessions and the Garden ownership are separate items (ie. Jacobs could sell the Garden or the Bruins and still be the concessionaire). That's why it's a great setup for Jacobs (who was not in threat of bankruptcy that I know of at all). They operate concessions in stadiums and arenas for all major sports, airports, convention centers, etc. Deep pockets. http://www.delawarenorth.com/map.aspx?mapvar=Worldwide

No offense to the Celtics (they were my first sports love as a child) this has always been a hockey town. That's how it all came to be. The Celtics were winning 11 titles in 13 years in front of half sold houses, while the B's weren't even making the playoffs until a couple Bobby Orr years got them back, but were still playing to larger crowds than the C's.

Hockey was just more blue collar. The tables have turned somewhat in recent memory. Partially due to the Larry Bird years and the Celts becoming the blue collar NBA antithesis to Showtime in LA, plus the huge overall growth of the sport in the 80's. Also, Boston has become less and less blue collar.

History has made the C's the tenant to the B's basically being the landlord. Has nothing to do with any of the crap thrown against the wall above.

As far as the C's being better off with their own, I still have a hard time with that. Owners and investors want quick payback. They don't like to wait 10 years to start making on the building, they want it now. If they decided to leave and build a competitive site, the Garden would upgrade for cheaper over off seasons/downtime to keep their clients. The location can't be beat, it's just a non-argument any way you slice it. The Celts don't have enough to gain to try that. Throw in the fact that basketball is slumping big time in ratings, their next TV contracts may not be so sweet as they have been, and they have some of the highest paid athletes in all of pro sports.... the numbers don't make sense.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:42 PM   #128
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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Originally Posted by SeamusMcFly View Post
The point I made about concessions being the real money is more based on ROI. Cost to operate vs. revenue. The concessions and the Garden ownership are separate items (ie. Jacobs could sell the Garden or the Bruins and still be the concessionaire). That's why it's a great setup for Jacobs (who was not in threat of bankruptcy that I know of at all). They operate concessions in stadiums and arenas for all major sports, airports, convention centers, etc. Deep pockets. http://www.delawarenorth.com/map.aspx?mapvar=Worldwide

No offense to the Celtics (they were my first sports love as a child) this has always been a hockey town. That's how it all came to be. The Celtics were winning 11 titles in 13 years in front of half sold houses, while the B's weren't even making the playoffs until a couple Bobby Orr years got them back, but were still playing to larger crowds than the C's.

Hockey was just more blue collar. The tables have turned somewhat in recent memory. Partially due to the Larry Bird years and the Celts becoming the blue collar NBA antithesis to Showtime in LA, plus the huge overall growth of the sport in the 80's. Also, Boston has become less and less blue collar.

History has made the C's the tenant to the B's basically being the landlord. Has nothing to do with any of the crap thrown against the wall above.

As far as the C's being better off with their own, I still have a hard time with that. Owners and investors want quick payback. They don't like to wait 10 years to start making on the building, they want it now. If they decided to leave and build a competitive site, the Garden would upgrade for cheaper over off seasons/downtime to keep their clients. The location can't be beat, it's just a non-argument any way you slice it. The Celts don't have enough to gain to try that. Throw in the fact that basketball is slumping big time in ratings, their next TV contracts may not be so sweet as they have been, and they have some of the highest paid athletes in all of pro sports.... the numbers don't make sense.
Good Post I agree.....I didn't realize how deep the Jacob Family pockets where.
But I did see that opportunity back when the Lockout occured the C's were the only production in town to support the Jacob Garden.
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:06 PM   #129
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Re: TD Garden Towers

The celtics new tv contract is gigantic. Celtics are more internationally famous than the bruins.
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Old 05-22-2013, 05:58 PM   #130
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Good for them, I want them to do well. I was referring to the NBA TV deals with TNT,TBS, ESPN..... They have gigantic deals now, but the ratings suck.

The point is still moot about which is doing better or better known across the country or world. The point is about what makes economical sense. And the fact that success (or apparent success) of one team or sport compared to another is not always a major determining factor.
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Old 05-22-2013, 06:31 PM   #131
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Re: TD Garden Towers

The tv contracts will be much bigger.
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Old 05-22-2013, 06:40 PM   #132
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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Originally Posted by BosDevelop View Post
If the real money is in concessions (which I agree with) how is the current arrangement a good deal for the Celtics for the long term? Sure moving into their own facility will result in a lot of debt initially but at some point, those costs are paid down or reduced significantly and then the team can enjoy the benefits of concession sales AND ticket revenue. If the Celtics had the interest and did this right in terms of facility and location, I don't see why they couldn't steal most of the non-Celtics/Bruins bookings away from the Garden where anyone who has been to a concert will tell you the sound is sub par in a large portion of the building. I sat in the upper deck of the Garden for the Prince concert a few years back and the sound was deplorable. I will never sit up there for a concert again.
......or maybe the problem was that it was a PRINCE concert.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:28 PM   #133
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Prince is the only performance at the Super Bowl that I even cared enough to watch since the U2 halftime. That guy is pretty flippin fantastic still after all these years.
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:50 PM   #134
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Re: TD Garden Towers

What happened to the discussion about potential construction in front of the Garden?
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:55 PM   #135
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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What happened to the discussion about potential construction in front of the Garden?
You haven't been on here that long... There is a cycle:

1) Post article from Globe, Herald, or BBJ
2) Excitement ensues for 3-10 posts.
3) Rendering released. 10-30 more posts, possibly from only 2-5 members about the architectural apocalypse being upon us.
4) Community meeting time... NIMBYs/BRA suck, this wouldn't happen in NYC, etc.
5) Revised proposal released. Floors cut, value engineering done, and discussion about alucobond.
6) More community meetings and bitching. Something keeps being posted about "lack of vision and the Krafts/seaport". Thread also derails into some ridiculous topic like this thread, independent movie houses now closed, or DTX BIDs.
7) Construction may or may not start. Surprise BRA or Mass Dep/DOT permitting issue.
8) If construction continues, some awesome folks will do their damnedest to document it all with a gallery of pics.
9) For every 1 pic there is a ration of 5-10 posts judging materials like precast and glazing. 50% chance of thread derailing again. And with construction not even at 10% complete people will declare the building to be the end of Boston.
10) Building complete, it turns out 'not as bad' as people thought or 'better than a parking lot'. Thread dies.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:07 PM   #136
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Re: TD Garden Towers

^ Wow that is a perfect summary of aB. Well done, my friend.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:42 PM   #137
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Random question: is this related?

(next to Zakim Bridge/Garden)
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:59 PM   #138
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Re: TD Garden Towers

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Random question: is this related?

(next to Zakim Bridge/Garden)
No, that is Lovejoy Wharf >> http://www.archboston.org/community/...?t=1423&page=9
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:28 AM   #139
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Bos77, too funny! Even as I was reading down the list I could just picture which posters were saying what or submitting photo's, or getting off track! I guess I've been on this site way too long! Very good! But I have to say...of all that you said and in spite of what it is, this forum is still the best! Enjoy it very much!
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:34 AM   #140
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Re: TD Garden Towers

Slow clap @ Bos77. You sir, have created a post of pure perfection.
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