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Old 12-08-2008, 06:06 PM   #61
JimboJones
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Does anyone have links to any renderings? I know the Globe ran the ICON design, but I hate stealing. There's nothing on the ICON site that I can find ...
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:45 AM   #62
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

the turnpike authority has released more details:

1. The Chiofaro Company (6.4 MB PDF)http://www.masspike.com/pdf/real_estate/chiofaro.pdf

2. ADG Scotia II LLC (2.7 MB PDF)http://www.masspike.com/pdf/real_estate/adg_scotia.pdf

3. Carpenter & Company (3.85 MB PDF)http://www.masspike.com/pdf/real_estate/carpenter.pdf

4. Trinity Financial (5.3 MB PDF)http://www.masspike.com/pdf/real_estate/trinity.pdf




http://www.masspike.com/business/parcels12-15.html
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:42 AM   #63
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Thanks for those.

I would have to pick The Chiofaro Co. and Trinity to complete the buildout of all parcel with a few caveats.

Why does Chiofaro have the glass facade facing the river and the brick facade facing the Hilton? It should be reversed in my opinion. I do like that they are proposing a "flatiron" building here, and the way that it helps visually define that area, which is very confusing to pedestrians and motorists. I also like that they are proposing only office space, since there are so few site suitable for office towers left in Back Bay.

Trinity is "ok", but with that scale/massing, it will really take high quality materials and strong detailing to not make this into another Church Park Apts. 360 Newbury should set the standard for detailing.

If done right, these two developments could really enliven what is an awkward hole in the urban fabric.

Also, is there any reason that Carpenter & Co couldn't still build the office component above the Dalton St. garage? Do they already own the garage?

ADG Scotia's is really disappoininting in my opinion. Of course it is CBT, so the lack of context shouldn't be surprising.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:01 PM   #64
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

#1 and 2 would be fine with me,along with 1 Kenmore and Berkley proposal these will extend the backbay skyline!
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:23 PM   #65
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

I like Trinity the most; It fills in the urban fabric the best. The proposals with the towers I think are lame. Chiofaro is alright, the other two are duds. I will always take a restored street wall over some half-assed tower.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:28 PM   #66
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

I like the ADG Scotia building more than the Chiofaro one. I like the way it's facing more and the materials look better. I just don't like that little park. I think the design would work well with the Trinity one and I think there still might be room for the Carpenter building.
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:10 PM   #67
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

I like ADG Scotia/CBT site plan best, but their tower seems to be lacking.

I like C&C/C7 styling the best, but it looks awkward and stouty-if only it were a tad bit taller.

Trinity/ICON is nice, but I'd really like something a bit taller, and believe it or not, more brick. And less garnish on the balconies, it looks like that awful apartment building directly across from MIT over the Charles. If they had added more detail, it would be a lot nicer, I just think the balconies look awful. Although, their street interaction seems to work well.

The Chiofaro/tat is just awful in my opinion. The only thing it has going for it is the massing and the "flatiron" style that atlrvr mentioned.

My pick goes with ADG Scotia/CBT with a heightened version of the C7 tower-like thing. Wow, did I just pick CBT over ICON? What the hell?
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:47 PM   #68
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

If they are going for a tower, I'll choose ADG. One side all glass and one side all brick just doesn't work for me. If they are choosing a low/mid-rise, I will go with Trinity.
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:12 PM   #69
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Chiofaro:

I like the covered sidewalk

ADG Scotia II LLC: has a huge list of "all-star" team members, will help them A LOT
The park over the triangle parcel is nice, provides a good shortcut.
I dont like how much of parcel 12 is left unused.
The design seems purely for massing

Carpenter & Company
Ugliest proposal papers
Ugliest design
Too short

Trinity Financial
Whered the bus shelter on mass ave go?
Also leaves alot of parcel 12 unused


All:
WAY too much parking

I like the first two best
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:23 PM   #70
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

I'd take a combination of Chiofaro or Carpenter and Trinity. Carpenter hasn't been playing that well here, but it seems to be the best crafted project architecturally. Trinity has obviously picked up on the need for a strong streetwall. The ADG design is bullshit - forsaking the rest of Boylston to a cheap park and papering over the Mass. Pike bridge with a one-story curtain.
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:59 PM   #71
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Scotia. It's tall, fills in all the parcels to the east, and has the best architectural design. The density on the west side of Mass Ave is lacking, but it's there to appease NIMBYs, so it's the best plan overall IMO. Chiofaro's plan doesn't cover enough space, only one plot, and it's pretty ugly with two types of cladding on two sides (W Hotel's is ok, but two entirely different materials are not). Plus it doesn't have any public benefits, and I think the park in the Scotia design would actually be pretty nice, it would be in a high-trafficked area surrounded by skyscrapers, so it won't sit there unused. It's something that appeases NIMBYs that I actually like, pretty rare eh. The one story building on the west side of Mass Ave seems to be affordable housing, so that's probably some more NIMBY appeasement keeping the rabble as far away from central Back Bay. Carpenter doesn't take up enough space and is ugly architecturally, I don't like anything about it. Trinity seems like the most urban, but it keeps the air rights parcel just west of the Hynes open, turning me off. I would still rank it #2, and #1 if the NIMBYs can get them to build a park or even an ugly ass parking garage on the empty plot, just ANYTHING to prevent the disruption of the urban fabric. Boylston's urbanity has been creeping westward rapidly in the past few years (Mandarin, apple store, 888 boylston, and now this), this will finally cap it, I can't wait!
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Old 01-16-2009, 05:03 PM   #72
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

ADG Scotia: Pretty presumptive, the assumptions they make about adjacent property. Incoherent design.

Carpenter: Interesting concept. Wonder if they deliberately stayed out of Trinity's way on this. I worry about oversaturation in the hotel market, but competition will help keep pricing down if anchored by a major brand.

Chiofaro/Prudential: I like everything about it. Unfortunate: they were obviously not prepared to submit (handwritten corporate info, done by a secretary's fourth-grade kid?)

Trinity: Hideous and repetitive in finish materials and that terrible 80's awning, but deals with Parcel 12 and 13 with fairly coherent and well-conceived mass (both height and footprint). I'd press them on finish materials, but otherwise give a green light. (Edit to add: I wonder if they were deliberately staying out of Berklee's way, after looking at it again.)

I predict: Trinity will be awarded 12, 13. Carpenter will be awarded Parcel 15. Berklee will be allowed to build something around 8 stories on their corner property (possibly encroaching on parcel 14 when everyone hashes out the Boylston/Cambria/Scotia/Dalton/St. Cecilia St problem) and both Trinity and Carpenter will be strongly encouraged to accomodate Berklee's needs in the middle floors, since Berklee won't get their tower.

I wish I'd see: Trinity (with improved exterior materials), the Chiafaro tower pretty much as is (but mass shifted a little to the east) and on Berklee's property, a smaller tower that contrasts wildly with everything else.

I can't wait for the CAC to start meeting.
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:43 AM   #73
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

The Trinity proposal seems pretty deceptive to me. The renderings appear to try to hide the 50' gap over the pike, which they plan to hide with a low-level wall, they want to leave (I suppose it is expedient, so that they can avoid having to fight the new condo owners in the adjacent building). Oddly, it still seems to be the best fit for the intersection of mass/boylston.
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:44 AM   #74
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

well, i like each proposal except the carpenter one.

Chiofaro: its a nice, acceptable building, but its nothing special or unique really.

ADG: well, it huge compared to the others, and it stretches the skyline nicely, but it doesn't really add much to the area other than height..

Trinity: I like how lively it makes the area look, although it is pretty short and that area that is kinda behind the street facing buildings looks pretty shitty.

If I had to pick it would be between ADG and Trinity
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:41 AM   #75
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

I like Trinity best, as its massing is consistent with the best qualities of the neighborhood. bbfen is quite right, though, that the renderings portend the use of much cheap brick paneling and aluminum siding. The BRA will have to step up its game if this developer is selected. No more Hotel Commonwealths, boys!

The Scotia tower appealed to me, if it is to be a high rise project.

The enthusiasm for Chiafaro puzzles me a bit. The proposal is very tentative, and reeks of being rushed and underfunded. This submission is a placeholder done on the cheap. I would reject it out of hand for that reason alone. Aesthetically, it is the weakest. I'll grant you that it is contextual with the Hilton and the back of the Prudential Center. Is that a good thing?
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Old 01-17-2009, 12:12 PM   #76
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Could ADG's proposal still be profitable if they only built the tower on Parcel 15? It would be great to see the ADG proposal on Parcel 15 with the Trinity proposal for 12 and 13 (preferably with better materials but not a show-stopper for me).
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:01 PM   #77
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Trinity's is clearly the best. The scale works really well. The form and massing is well thought out and does a great job continuing the ground level experience with Boylston and Mass Ave. I can really imagine people wanting to be in this space.

Chiofaro's is ambitious for this parcel. I'm afraid that having such a high tower in this area would be a little intimidating (even though Boston needs more height). The streetscape needs to be inviting for it to work well. I also wish something interesting was done with Cambria street instead of defaulting and just assuming it would be used for deliveries and through traffic for the Prudential.

How about something like this?





I can picture this more in Kenmore Sq, but hey one can dream!
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:46 PM   #78
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverworks View Post
I also wish something interesting was done with Cambria street instead of defaulting and just assuming it would be used for deliveries and through traffic for the Prudential.
The difficulty (of course) with renderings at this point, is things like Cambria. The Hynes has no other avenue for freight access, so Cambria is left as a placeholder and ends up influencing the entire proposal.

In the ideal world, developer of Parcel 15 also gains control of Auditorium Garage and the former St. Cecilia plot:

1) create a new entrance to the garage and loading zone from Scotia
2) close the gap of the current garage entrance on Dalton
2) fully develop the streetwall on Dalton to reflect against the soon-to-be Hynes shop on the corner
3) extend on Boylston the whole way to a new, small, residential road aligned with St. Cecilia St.
4) Berklee would build over Cambria and Parcel 14 to this extended St. Cecilia Street, which would go down the hill to meet with their loading dock at the very end of Scotia
5) There is suddenly a streetwall from Mass Ave to Dalton streets!!
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Old 01-17-2009, 02:50 PM   #79
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverworks View Post
Look how far we've fallen.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:11 PM   #80
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Re: Mandarin developers eye Pike parcels for project

Between all the projects, this now hole in the urban fabric will be completely filled in. I think of the combination of Scotia and Carpenter would give the desired development and density. Design? thats still up in the air
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