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Old 12-08-2017, 12:15 PM   #1021
Rover
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by dshoost88 View Post
If you were taking the commuter rail to South Station, then why not just transfer to a commuter rail train going to Yawkey Station? I thought that was the whole point of Yawkey--improve commuter rail connectivity to the Fenway.

As for folks coming from the North/West, same thought on Yawkey. And if your commuter train goes to North Station, do a single transfer to the green line C branch there and get off at Hynes or Kenmore.

Hubway
Pedi-cab
Walk
MBTA bus
"T"
Commuter Rail
Uber/Lyft/Taxi

There are so many transportation alternatives to getting to Fenway Park, I think making it even easier to drive and park there is incredulously regressive. And this is from someone that has to come in all the way from Manchester, NH now.

The allure of Boston's built environment is that it is not a sea of parking lots and garages, but rather it oozes character. On that note, I think phase I mostly complements that.
This is all predicated on people having the same love of complex transit options as you do. Again, some people when coming into town for an event like the flexibility of coming and leaving when they want. Not everybody wants to do 2 or 3 train connections either. Many do and its great that they have the option. Many others don't so you'll always need to ability to park in the city, particularly for an event. Especially since for multiple people even paying 40 bucks to park is cheaper than paying for a T lot, then commuter pass/subway ticket, then cab/pedi-cab/uber, etc. Its not like you can stop BU from charging people to park in their campus lots either, so I fail to see the problem here.
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:41 PM   #1022
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post
I love that this was broken up less than three hours ago into a "project thread" and a "Phase I thread", and already every single post in the "Phase I thread" except for the very first one is discussing the overall project beyond Phase I...

This is exactly why we shouldn't have multiple threads for the same project...
Maybe read the article next time.

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Again, some people when coming into town for an event like the flexibility of coming and leaving when they want. Not everybody wants to do 2 or 3 train connections either.
And some people (many people, believe me) who live and work in the neighborhood don't want 1,200 extra cars driving on Comm Ave or Beacon Street because we have created a situation where the best option is to drive.

If you CHOOSE to live in some far flung exurb, then you do NOT have the right to fuck up everybody elses day because heavens forbid you have to transfer at Park like those dirty, dirty plebs.
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:54 PM   #1023
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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And some people (many people, believe me) who live and work in the neighborhood don't want 1,200 extra cars driving on Comm Ave or Beacon Street because we have created a situation where the best option is to drive.
Currently the Green Line gets crushed for two hours before and after a game. I could make the same argument that as a commuter on the T, I want fewer drunk baseball fans falling on me when the trolley accelerates.

Regardless, I highly doubt that this garage will mean an additional 1200 people driving to games. I'd wager that most people are set on their ways regardless of the amount of parking available - they're either going to use public transit or they're going to drive, based on where they live. Maybe a few marginal cases where it's similar enough to use either option.

From my perspective, building a giant parking lot next to the stadium will contain the drivers to the immediate area around the park. That will preserve some sanity for the rest of the neighborhood during baseball games.

As an aside... the real solution is to move Fenway Park to the suburbs, but that's neither here nor there.
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:54 PM   #1024
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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This is all predicated on people having the same love of complex transit options as you do.
Sorry, that's not how planning and policy work. The whole point is to influence behavior that is better for society as a whole:

- Some people had a love of generating cancer-causing secondhand smoke in restaurants
- Some people think climate change is a hoax
- Some people prefer to drive Hummer H1s than eco-friendly vehicles

Policy should be designed to influence the right behavior, not cater to the wrong behavior. And yes, sometimes there is a right and a wrong. In a democratic society that's not for any one individual to decide...but it is for our system of governance and checks and balances to decide.
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:57 PM   #1025
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by jass View Post
Maybe read the article next time.



And some people (many people, believe me) who live and work in the neighborhood don't want 1,200 extra cars driving on Comm Ave or Beacon Street because we have created a situation where the best option is to drive.

If you CHOOSE to live in some far flung exurb, then you do NOT have the right to fuck up everybody elses day because heavens forbid you have to transfer at Park like those dirty, dirty plebs.
If you CHOOSE to live or work RIGHT BY A BLEEPING STADIUM then THAT'S ON YOU!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:12 PM   #1026
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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If you CHOOSE to live or work RIGHT BY A BLEEPING STADIUM then THAT'S ON YOU!!!!!!!!!
And if you CHOOSE to attend a baseball game at a 103-year-old stadium that routinely sells out to 3,000,000+ fans a year with the limited parking availability that exists there now, then either be prepared to pay a premium at existing parking stock or make other arrangements for getting to the game.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:23 PM   #1027
Rover
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Sorry, that's not how planning and policy work. The whole point is to influence behavior that is better for society as a whole:

- Some people had a love of generating cancer-causing secondhand smoke in restaurants
- Some people think climate change is a hoax
- Some people prefer to drive Hummer H1s than eco-friendly vehicles

Policy should be designed to influence the right behavior, not cater to the wrong behavior. And yes, sometimes there is a right and a wrong. In a democratic society that's not for any one individual to decide...but it is for our system of governance and checks and balances to decide.
The part you're missing is if a majority of people want to preserve the right to drive into town for the game. It is a democracy, and not everyone wants to do multiple transfers, be packed like sardines on the train, and then have to come and go according to the train schedule. If you start trying to ram things down people's throats, they're going to rebel. Most people don't want smoking in restaurants - hence its banned. Most people don't think climate change is a hoax although the governing party in DC does. Most people don't drive Hummers. I'm guessing most people like to drive in for baseball games.

The attitude I'm seeing here reminds me of bikers. Hard core bikers think everybody should bike at all times. Doesn't matter if its bad weather, you're elderly, or you have a job that you have to dress up in and have no access to a shower once you get to work. Sorry, they sniff, everyone should be biking.

Likewise, its not correct that everyone needs to use public transit when coming into Boston. Sometimes you have a need to drive. Society isn't going to fall apart if half the fans want to drive into town 81 times a year for a ballgame especially if its multiple people per vehicle.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:23 PM   #1028
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by jass View Post
Maybe read the article next time.
I did read the article. The "more than 1,200 spaces" referenced therein come in Phase II, not Phase I. Their only connection to Phase I is that Phase I will contain a "pedestrian connection" to where they will be built in Phase II.

If we're saying that the decking and development of Phase II is fair game for the Phase I thread because of its "connection" to Phase I, then there is absolutely zero point in splitting up these threads.

I stand by my comment 100%.

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post
I love that this was broken up less than three hours ago into a "project thread" and a "Phase I thread", and already every single post in the "Phase I thread" except for the very first one is discussing the overall project beyond Phase I...

This is exactly why we shouldn't have multiple threads for the same project...
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:24 PM   #1029
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
This is all predicated on people having the same love of complex transit options as you do.
FACT: All people like having transportation options. As it stands now, Fenway Park (and by association Fenway Center) feature more transit options than arguably any stadium or arena in the US outside of New York.

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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Again, some people when coming into town for an event like the flexibility of coming and leaving when they want.
Raise your hand if you've ever been trapped on a car, bus, or B-line train when a tsunami of cars make an exodus from Red Sox games onto Commonwealth Ave near the BU Bridge or Charlesgate. My point: nobody really gets exactly where they want to be in Boston at the time they want to be there unless they walk or bicycle. Although it would be nice to.

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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Not everybody wants to do 2 or 3 train connections either. Many do and its great that they have the option. Many others don't so you'll always need to ability to park in the city, particularly for an event.
Please read my post again. It is possible for virtually any person in Eastern Massachusetts near a rail station to get to Fenway Park with a single connection, not 2 or 3. If that isn't convenient, I don't know what is.

Would it be preferable for commuter rail trains to run at a frequency of 10-minute headways into and out of the city like you'll see in places like Greater London, England? ABSOLUTELY! Obviously, our transportation system is broken and underfunded, but those problems are only exascerbated if you induce the demand for vehicle trips, traffic congestion, and noise pollution if you give people more places to park in a city.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:25 PM   #1030
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
If you CHOOSE to live or work RIGHT BY A BLEEPING STADIUM then THAT'S ON YOU!!!!!!!!!
We are not talking about the stadium, we are talking about a 1,200 car garage.

Quote:
Regardless, I highly doubt that this garage will mean an additional 1200 people driving to games. I'd wager that most people are set on their ways regardless of the amount of parking available - they're either going to use public transit or they're going to drive, based on where they live. Maybe a few marginal cases where it's similar enough to use either option.
Econ 101.

If the same number of people drive, then other lots will lower prices, thus increasing demand for driving. Final result after the prices change is 1,200 extra people driving.

Quote:
From my perspective, building a giant parking lot next to the stadium will contain the drivers to the immediate area around the park. That will preserve some sanity for the rest of the neighborhood during baseball games.
Care to show me on a map how people will arrive into the garage without affecting the entire area?

If the garage had direct on and off ramps to the highway, it wouldnt be a big deal. The only impact would be to highway traffic.

But it doesnt. It means new drivers will be using Kenmore Square. New drivers will be using the BU Bridge. New drivers will be trying to access Storow at University Drive. These drivers will be crossing (and blocking) one of the busiest bikeways in the city, heavily pedestrian areas, and the B line.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:30 PM   #1031
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post
I did read the article. The "more than 1,200 spaces" referenced therein come in Phase II, not Phase I. Their only connection to Phase I is that Phase I will contain a "pedestrian connection" to where they will be built in Phase II.

If we're saying that the decking and development of Phase II is fair game for the Phase I thread because of its "connection" to Phase I, then there is absolutely zero point in splitting up these threads.

I stand by my comment 100%.
Again, that is not what the article says.

Phase I of the Fenway Center Development Project, allowing for construction to begin immediately on two buildings which will contain rental housing units, retail and office space, as well as a direct pedestrian walkway to the adjacent Yawkey commuter rail station and a parking lot with more than 1,200 spaces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rover View Post
The part you're missing is if a majority of people want to preserve the right to drive into town for the game. It is a democracy,
1. Democracies are absolute garbage at dealing with negative externalities. A majority of people would rather pay zero taxes and give out free ponies. Hooray!

2. I dont remember seeing the garage on the ballot. Did I miss that election?

3. Ironically, a democratic process would have blocked the garage because nobody in Fenway would have voted for it. Who gives a shit about what the lovely people of bumblefuck "prefer"

Quote:
Likewise, its not correct that everyone needs to use public transit when coming into Boston. Sometimes you have a need to drive. Society isn't going to fall apart if half the fans want to drive into town 81 times a year for a ballgame especially if its multiple people per vehicle.
You must be in the wrong thread. No one is talking about banning cars.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:36 PM   #1032
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

@ dehoost,

1) your first point is a strawman argument that nobody is arguing against.

2) another strawman unfortunately. you have more flexibility driving than you do taking transit. Some people will choose this option for that reason and could vary their schedule accordingly.

3) You still seem to be missing the point. As things stand now, with no new garage for some people particularly families its cheaper and easier to drive. Those people have already made the decision to do so, and building this garage might prevent them from circling the neighborhood looking for parking. I'd also question your analysis. If I'm coming from the South, sure maybe you can take the middleborough, greenbush, Plymouth or providence line to get to the game, but that's predicated on the timing of the transit system working properly that you actually make your commuter rail connection from South station out to Fenway. Last time I checked the MBTA wasn't on par with the Paris or Tokyo transit systems. Most likely in the real world you're going commuter (or bus) to Red to Green and are getting crammed in on that trip to Kenmore. Some people for timing, cost, and convenience sake might just prefer to drive. I'm not quite ready to condemn them to hell because of it.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:49 PM   #1033
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by jass View Post
Again, that is not what the article says.

Phase I of the Fenway Center Development Project, allowing for construction to begin immediately on two buildings which will contain rental housing units, retail and office space, as well as a direct pedestrian walkway to the adjacent Yawkey commuter rail station and a parking lot with more than 1,200 spaces.
Dude, the garage is Phase II. The article is somewhat poorly written, but that's what it says too.

Phase I "will contain will contain rental housing units, retail and office space, as well as a direct pedestrian walkway to the adjacent Yawkey commuter rail station and a parking lot with more than 1,200 spaces".

Notice how the "1,200 spaces" part is not listed alongside the "housing units, retail and office space" part, but rather is listed after the "as well as a direct pedestrian walkway to" part? There should be a "future" before "parking lot", but still...

Anyway, we don't have to be picking apart MassDOT's poor sentence structure. A minimal background knowledge of this project tells us that the garage is that big garage-looking thing to be built over the Pike. Phase I doesn't include decking. It doesn't include the garage. Notice how the garage is conspicuously absent from Phase I renders, but included in Phase I + II renders? And notice how no other sources (including the Globe article) say anything about the garage being included in Phase I?

The garage is Phase II. This thread is Phase I.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:51 PM   #1034
Rover
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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You must be in the wrong thread. No one is talking about banning cars.
Oh come now jass, that's what you'd really like to see. Be loud and proud about it!

Also couldn't let this one pass..

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1. Democracies are absolute garbage at dealing with negative externalities.
So, what's your alternative? Divine monarchy with you as our ruler? No. Thanks.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:02 PM   #1035
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by jass View Post
We are not talking about the stadium, we are talking about a 1,200 car garage.
A 1200 car garage that first and foremost will serve the stadium that you chose to either live or work right next to. The stadium was also there well before you were. If the congestion bothered you so much you never should have made the choice to live or work by there in the first place.

Maybe you need to petition the local government that the area around Fenway should be catering to you and not to the Red Sox organization. I'm sure that would go over well, as we all know that jass is an indispensable, legendary institution in Boston while the Red Sox are just an afterthought.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:18 PM   #1036
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post
Dude, the garage is Phase II. The article is somewhat poorly written, but that's what it says too.

Phase I "will contain will contain rental housing units, retail and office space, as well as a direct pedestrian walkway to the adjacent Yawkey commuter rail station and a parking lot with more than 1,200 spaces".

Notice how the "1,200 spaces" part is not listed alongside the "housing units, retail and office space" part, but rather is listed after the "as well as a direct pedestrian walkway to" part? There should be a "future" before "parking lot", but still...

Anyway, we don't have to be picking apart MassDOT's poor sentence structure. A minimal background knowledge of this project tells us that the garage is that big garage-looking thing to be built over the Pike. Phase I doesn't include decking. It doesn't include the garage. Notice how the garage is conspicuously absent from Phase I renders, but included in Phase I + II renders? And notice how no other sources (including the Globe article) say anything about the garage being included in Phase I?

The garage is Phase II. This thread is Phase I.
Actually, as someone with extensive background knowledge of this project, I know that for a few years, the proposal was to start with ONLY the garage.

So things change. How do you know it hasnt changed again? That paragraph is straight from the horses mouth.

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Originally Posted by DZH22 View Post
A 1200 car garage that first and foremost will serve the stadium that you chose to either live or work right next to. The stadium was also there well before you were. If the congestion bothered you so much you never should have made the choice to live or work by there in the first place.
I am eager to see that 115 year old planning document you clearly have on hand to show that the stadium planning vision included a 1,200 garage parking lot.

I also eagerly await a study showing that the stadium simply isnt feasible without said garage.

Dont worry, I have time.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:23 PM   #1037
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post
I love that this was broken up less than three hours ago into a "project thread" and a "Phase I thread", and already every single post in the "Phase I thread" except for the very first one is discussing the overall project beyond Phase I...

This is exactly why we shouldn't have multiple threads for the same project...
yeas

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshoost88 View Post
If you were taking the commuter rail to South Station, then why not just transfer to a commuter rail train going to Yawkey Station? I thought that was the whole point of Yawkey--improve commuter rail connectivity to the Fenway.

As for folks coming from the North/West, same thought on Yawkey. And if your commuter train goes to North Station, do a single transfer to the green line C branch there and get off at Hynes or Kenmore.

Hubway
Pedi-cab
Walk
MBTA bus
"T"
Commuter Rail
Uber/Lyft/Taxi

There are so many transportation alternatives to getting to Fenway Park, I think making it even easier to drive and park there is incredulously regressive. And this is from someone that has to come in all the way from Manchester, NH now.

The allure of Boston's built environment is that it is not a sea of parking lots and garages, but rather it oozes character. On that note, I think phase I mostly complements that.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:25 PM   #1038
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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Originally Posted by jass View Post
I am eager to see that 115 year old planning document you clearly have on hand to show that the stadium planning vision included a 1,200 garage parking lot.

I also eagerly await a study showing that the stadium simply isnt feasible without said garage.

Dont worry, I have time.

I'm eagerly awaiting the study to show that a neighborhood suddenly has to cater exclusively to you. At the very least, you could prove how you somehow create more value for the neighborhood than Fenway Park does.

You should go log a formal complaint with City Hall. I'm sure they really care what you have to say. You can be the tipping point that leads to the cancellation of the garage!

Or.... maybe you should find yourself another neighborhood. The park isn't going anywhere.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:25 PM   #1039
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

Hold on, does everyone here think the garage is Phase I? Or just jass?

Literally every source available says the garage is Phase II. Every article, every render, everything. The only reference casting any doubt is one poorly written sentence in one article, but if you really pull it apart even that implies the garage is not included in Phase I.

The garage is Phase II. This thread is Phase I. These threads should be merged.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:34 PM   #1040
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Re: Fenway Center Phase I | ~775 Beacon St | Fenway

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I'm eagerly awaiting the study to show that a neighborhood suddenly has to cater exclusively to you. At the very least, you could prove how you somehow create more value for the neighborhood than Fenway Park does.

You should go log a formal complaint with City Hall. I'm sure they really care what you have to say. You can be the tipping point that leads to the cancellation of the garage!

Or.... maybe you should find yourself another neighborhood. The park isn't going anywhere.
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