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Old 04-23-2019, 08:44 AM   #101
Equilibria
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

Presentation from yesterday's FMCB about CR fare gates - includes limited renders:

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/f...accessible.pdf

I'd like them to have included a diagram for South Station after construction of SST Phase 1 - I'm not sure if they're planning to gate off the whole cut-through. I hope not.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:53 AM   #102
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by Equilibria View Post
Presentation from yesterday's FMCB about CR fare gates - includes limited renders:

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/f...accessible.pdf

I'd like them to have included a diagram for South Station after construction of SST Phase 1 - I'm not sure if they're planning to gate off the whole cut-through. I hope not.
Sure, go ahead and buy fare gates that are different from all the other fare gates you are going to buy 2 years from now. Brilliant.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:37 AM   #103
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by Equilibria View Post
Presentation from yesterday's FMCB about CR fare gates - includes limited renders:

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/f...accessible.pdf

I'd like them to have included a diagram for South Station after construction of SST Phase 1 - I'm not sure if they're planning to gate off the whole cut-through. I hope not.
Many systems around the world gate commuter rail. Spain, France, England...

But they are not idiots and do stupid shit like this:

Quote:
Ticket checks by conductors and revenue staff will continue after the gates are installed
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:04 PM   #104
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Many systems around the world gate commuter rail. Spain, France, England...

But they are not idiots and do stupid shit like this:
I took that to be a temporary thing during the acceptance testing.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:07 PM   #105
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Sure, go ahead and buy fare gates that are different from all the other fare gates you are going to buy 2 years from now. Brilliant.
They have to be different, they need to accept Amtrak tickets as well as standard MBTA fares which adds a whole layer of complexity as they use phone barcodes or paper tickets...

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Many systems around the world gate commuter rail. Spain, France, England...

But they are not idiots and do stupid shit like this:
No, you are completely misreading what they are saying. They mean there will still be on-board ticket checks, which is completely standard even on train systems worldwide like in the UK. The fare gates are only at terminal stations (much like the UK), therefore you still need on-board checks to get people who board at non-terminal stations or are travelling interzone.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:48 PM   #106
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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They have to be different, they need to accept Amtrak tickets as well as standard MBTA fares which adds a whole layer of complexity as they use phone barcodes or paper tickets...
There are two ways around it that dont require new gates. One is having a staff person at one of the gates visually check Amtrak tickets and let people through. AKA, the same person that does those Amtrak checks today. This is what they do in Spain when a long-distance train is locked behind local gates.

The other is to bolt on a bar code reader to the existing machine. This is what NJ Transit did, and what the MTA is doing with their new tap system.


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No, you are completely misreading what they are saying. They mean there will still be on-board ticket checks, which is completely standard even on train systems worldwide like in the UK. The fare gates are only at terminal stations (much like the UK), therefore you still need on-board checks to get people who board at non-terminal stations or are travelling interzone.
No you have it wrong. The global standard is an occasional compliance check. Not checks for every passenger on every ride.
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:53 PM   #107
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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There are two ways around it that dont require new gates. One is having a staff person at one of the gates visually check Amtrak tickets and let people through. AKA, the same person that does those Amtrak checks today. This is what they do in Spain when a long-distance train is locked behind local gates.

No you have it wrong. The global standard is an occasional compliance check. Not checks for every passenger on every ride.
1. Why half ass it when they can do it right for once as they are. London has fare gates that handle both National Rail and TfL, its fantastic.

2. Once again, I lived in Britain for half my life, literally anywhere outside of London the standard is ticket checks on board and *sometimes* fare gates at terminal stations. But even then places like Edinburgh Waverly (one of the UK's largest) doesn't have a full fare gate system. The two step system works, unless you plan on having fully staffed fully secure fare gates at every single station on a route, you still need on board checks. Also don't forget high inbound rider exit stations like Ruggles, Yawkey, Boston Landing, etc won't have fare gates. And places where they do have fare gates in the UK they are commonly just left open anyway, even in London. You can't have closed fare gates unless the station is staffed at UK National Rail stations. A truly effective fare system has both physical measures (fare gates) and human/psychological measures (random or frequent fare checks). One alone is far to easy to avoid, slipping through fare gates is super easy even well designed ones, and avoiding conductors on trains is super easy, especially bi-level trains. Doing both is far more difficult.
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:55 PM   #108
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Many systems around the world gate commuter rail. Spain, France, England...
Add Ireland to that. I rode Iarnrod Eireann's services a bit around Ireland last October (Intercity between Dublin and Cork, and Commuter Rail and DART in Dublin) and found that most-if not all-stations had gates or validators, and that you tap your card at the validator or gates (which are identical to the ones used on the T) to enter the platform at your departure point and then must tap through the gates to exit at the main terminals in Dublin and Cork (and I assume most stations, as I noticed that some stations even in rather small towns in the middle of nowhere had gates). The train guards (aka conductors) on the Dublin-Cork service also conducted spot ticket checks along the way, and did sell fares onboard to those boarding at some very rural stations with no TVM, but they weren't primarily concerned with fare collection.
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:11 PM   #109
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

Here is Valencia, in Spain. Note the line of people on the left who are waiting at the metal gate that will open for the long distance (ie Amtrak) trains, where an employee does a visual check of the RENF ticket




Also note it is not a dungeon like the proposed South Station modification.
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:29 AM   #110
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

Why are you convinced the South Station modification will be a dungeon? The renderings show plenty of space for natural light to enter from the sides like in the station in the image I don't understand why you are so convinced that wont happen.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:19 AM   #111
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Why are you convinced the South Station modification will be a dungeon? The renderings show plenty of space for natural light to enter from the sides like in the station in the image I don't understand why you are so convinced that wont happen.
The renderings in fact do not show South Station at all.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:41 AM   #112
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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The renderings in fact do not show South Station at all.
Pretty sure he's referring to the South Station Tower renderings.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:03 PM   #113
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Also note it is not a dungeon like the proposed South Station modification.
Horse = dead.

#dungeon

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Old 04-25-2019, 06:09 AM   #114
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system



London Kings Cross. Barriers that accept national rail tickets on phone via a QR code scanner, national rail paper tickets via magnetic stripe, TfL paper tickets via a different magnetic stripe standard, Oyster via the tap pad and all types of contactless debit/credit through the tap pad. Let's not half ass it with people standing around waiting for manual ticket checks, let's do it right and have a proper ticket barrier system.

And let's try not to just leave them open like London does evidenced by the lovely photo
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:36 AM   #115
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Horse = dead.

#dungeon
hashtagtherearenotrainsinthisrender

(Is that how this works?)
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Old 04-25-2019, 10:18 AM   #116
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Let's not half ass it with people standing around waiting for manual ticket checks, let's do it right and have a proper ticket barrier system.

And let's try not to just leave them open like London does evidenced by the lovely photo
Is it half assing it if that is Amtrak's service standard these days?

There is no reason for Amtrak to do a ticket check before boarding at South Station, but they do it anyway.

And again, and I am saying is that if they have a QR reader, it can be added to existing gates.

NJT added a QR reader to their gates.



MTA tested one on their ancient turnstiles (these bad boys still have token slots)



And now theyre super gluing tap things onto them

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Old 04-25-2019, 11:12 AM   #117
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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And now theyre super gluing tap things onto them

Thats exactly how the MBTA is implementing the first step of AFC2.0 don't worry. Also I think you are wildly over interpreting the renderings which literally say "Artistic rendering" on them. There is no official word on who is actually supplying the gates and whether they will be the same or different from current ones.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:21 AM   #118
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

The big issue for me is that the gates should be for people entering the platforms, not for people entering the waiting area. What happens if a train is delayed or cancelled or for whatever reason you decide not to take it after you've been waiting? What if you need to leave and use the bathroom and come back? Will the vendors in the waiting area be only accessible by ticketed passengers?
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:02 AM   #119
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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The big issue for me is that the gates should be for people entering the platforms, not for people entering the waiting area. What happens if a train is delayed or cancelled or for whatever reason you decide not to take it after you've been waiting? What if you need to leave and use the bathroom and come back? Will the vendors in the waiting area be only accessible by ticketed passengers?
Have they shown how they would be laid out? Either way, it would be easy to just let people tap back out for a $0 transaction. If tap out is going to be required at the terminal stations, then you couldn't possibly have the gates at the platform as you would bottleneck the AM arrivals.

Vendors are a different issue though.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:19 AM   #120
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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The big issue for me is that the gates should be for people entering the platforms, not for people entering the waiting area. What happens if a train is delayed or cancelled or for whatever reason you decide not to take it after you've been waiting? What if you need to leave and use the bathroom and come back? Will the vendors in the waiting area be only accessible by ticketed passengers?
I suspect the vendor issue is why they are refraining from showing the South Station layouts. BBY and NS don't have much of an issue comparatively. But at the end of the day you're supposed to treat a gated station like an airport, the businesses still won't have trouble getting businesses just like how airside businesses do fine at airports. And the whole "change your mind" on riding thing is the same issue you have with subway stations and its really not a big deal. $0 tap outs are a no-go though, it opens up the system for cheating. For example, tapping in to enter the station, then tapping back out immediately but not actually walking back out through the turnstyles. Then you're in the fare paid area and paid no fare, big no no. Here's TfLs tap out rules: (maximum fare means the farthest zone you could travel to)

Quote:
Same station exits
If you touch contactless (card or device) or an Oyster card on a yellow card reader when you enter a station, and then touch out to exit it within a short period of time, you'll be charged a same station exit:

Between 0 - 2 minutes: a maximum fare. If you re-enter the same or a different station within 45 minutes, you'll be refunded. This doesn't apply if you take a bus or tram before re-entering a station
Between 2 - 30 minutes: minimum pay as you go fare from that station
More than 30 minutes: we'll assume two separate journeys have been made and both will be incomplete. You'll be charged two maximum fares
We apply these charges to discourage fare evasion.
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