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Old 03-12-2019, 10:40 AM   #61
cadetcarl
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

Not a direct answer to your question but I believe the NFC framework at least for android allows for interactions when the phone is unlocked, without requiring a further unlock, depending on the type of interaction. I don't know too much about this but it seems as though phone-locked or screen-off tapping is prohibited so it won't be completely frictionless.
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:22 PM   #62
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Not a direct answer to your question but I believe the NFC framework at least for android allows for interactions when the phone is unlocked, without requiring a further unlock, depending on the type of interaction. I don't know too much about this but it seems as though phone-locked or screen-off tapping is prohibited so it won't be completely frictionless.
Android allows no interaction when the phone is unlocked, my experience in London is iOS still requires verification when unlocked which was fine when it was as simple as resting your thumb against the fingerprint reader as you tapped in/out, I really hadn't thought about the impacts of face ID. I switched from iPhone a fee years ago...
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Old 03-12-2019, 01:57 PM   #63
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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I have a question about using a mobile phone for tapping. When I pay with phone at the grocery store, my iPhone does a FaceID validation (it did thumbprint on my older phone). Hopefully tapping into the subway/bus would not require that validation step. Does anyone have experience with a transit system that allows mobile NFC taps?
Thanks for mentioning this. I had this thought as well. I still use Apple Pay, but the Face ID piece of it is frustrating at the store sometimes as holding it close enough to the reader often means holding it too far from my face to get a good reading.

I am no expert, but I have to imagine that software updates could change this. The fact that my phone wakes itself up (though still requiring an unlock) when near a reader indicates that there is, at the very least, recognition of the device when it's in proximity. So I don't see why changes in the software wouldn't be able to allow locked/screen off interactions.
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:52 PM   #64
tysmith95
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

You could design a system similar to M-Ticket on the commuter rail. But instead of using a glance of the screen to validate or check the ticket you could use NFC contact to a bus or train.

But you're right, I believe with both Apple Pay and Android Pay you need authentication through FaceID or a fingerprint. That could hold up buses and the green line.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:22 PM   #65
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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You could design a system similar to M-Ticket on the commuter rail. But instead of using a glance of the screen to validate or check the ticket you could use NFC contact to a bus or train.

But you're right, I believe with both Apple Pay and Android Pay you need authentication through FaceID or a fingerprint. That could hold up buses and the green line.
As long as your Android phone is unlocked Google Pay requires no authentication so it won't be holding anything up as long as you unlock your phone before you get there. I don't have an apple device around me to check but I believe if you double click the lock button on an iPhone X/XR/XS (when on the lock screen) you can authenticate your face ahead of paying, and I think its double press the home button from the lock screen on an older iPhone. Then when you get to the reader you are ready to go, no hold ups necessary. Some form of authentication will always be required for obvious reasons unless you enjoy people taking your phone and being able to buy whatever they want. But my research says that both Apple and Android allow you to authenticate your face/finger before you get anywhere near a reader.

And um not quite with the commuter rail theory. They are verifying you have tapped on through NFC readers that conductors will carry, on London they look like this https://consumerlookout.files.wordpr...1&h=422&crop=1 but it's also been done through smartphones with a special app before. But there's no "buying a ticket" on the app before you board, however the goal is to have monthly passes available in app.

I personally am curious to see if they integrate corporate passes into the app or if those will remain physical card only. I'm also curious to see if passholders will still have to have tapped in before boarding... I would hope yes even if only for data purposes.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:22 PM   #66
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

I just checked and at least on apple devices you can authenticate your fingerprint before you tap so it is ready to go.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:21 AM   #67
fattony
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by HelloBostonHi View Post
I personally am curious to see if they integrate corporate passes into the app or if those will remain physical card only. I'm also curious to see if passholders will still have to have tapped in before boarding... I would hope yes even if only for data purposes.
My company-purchased pass updates on the same charlie card every month. That means they are just updating info for that charlie card number in a database each month. I don't see why your AFC 2.0 mobile account number wouldn't work exactly the same.

I am curious if you'll be able to use BOTH a charlie card and your phone for the same monthly pass. That would be easy to abuse. For example, what if you gave your card to someone else with a slightly different commuting pattern than you. You could both take the train on the same pass as long as it was outside the 15 minute lockout period (what whatever the duration is). The fact that it took me about 2 minutes to think up that scam makes me suspect that won't be an option.

For me personally, I think I would just stick to a charlie card rather than fooling around with phone unlocking and the possibility of your phone battery dying.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:00 AM   #68
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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My company-purchased pass updates on the same charlie card every month. That means they are just updating info for that charlie card number in a database each month. I don't see why your AFC 2.0 mobile account number wouldn't work exactly the same.

I am curious if you'll be able to use BOTH a charlie card and your phone for the same monthly pass. That would be easy to abuse. For example, what if you gave your card to someone else with a slightly different commuting pattern than you. You could both take the train on the same pass as long as it was outside the 15 minute lockout period (what whatever the duration is). The fact that it took me about 2 minutes to think up that scam makes me suspect that won't be an option.

For me personally, I think I would just stick to a charlie card rather than fooling around with phone unlocking and the possibility of your phone battery dying.
That is a really really good question, I feel like they will have to limit it to the pass being available on one form of your account (card or app) to prevent abuse. I plan on just using pure Android Pay and not using Charlie or the app at all assuming they implement monthly fare caps... Big IF, still doing revenue studies to see the impact of that decision...
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:00 AM   #69
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by fattony View Post
My company-purchased pass updates on the same charlie card every month. That means they are just updating info for that charlie card number in a database each month. I don't see why your AFC 2.0 mobile account number wouldn't work exactly the same.

I am curious if you'll be able to use BOTH a charlie card and your phone for the same monthly pass. That would be easy to abuse. For example, what if you gave your card to someone else with a slightly different commuting pattern than you. You could both take the train on the same pass as long as it was outside the 15 minute lockout period (what whatever the duration is). The fact that it took me about 2 minutes to think up that scam makes me suspect that won't be an option.

For me personally, I think I would just stick to a charlie card rather than fooling around with phone unlocking and the possibility of your phone battery dying.
I think it would be trivial to look at the boarding/unloading data for the gated stations and find heavy abusers. A repeated pattern of the same account swiping in at two stations in the morning or afternoon, even hours apart, that are physically separated by miles would obviously be something to investigate.

Last edited by Mongo; 03-13-2019 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:02 AM   #70
JumboBuc
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by fattony View Post
For me personally, I think I would just stick to a charlie card rather than fooling around with phone unlocking and the possibility of your phone battery dying.
Yeah, call me a luddite but I have zero intention in ever setting my phone up to pay for the T. Why use a $1k+ piece of electronics when a little plastic card does the trick just fine?
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:25 AM   #71
cadetcarl
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by Lrfox View Post
I am no expert, but I have to imagine that software updates could change this. The fact that my phone wakes itself up (though still requiring an unlock) when near a reader indicates that there is, at the very least, recognition of the device when it's in proximity. So I don't see why changes in the software wouldn't be able to allow locked/screen off interactions.
This would be a huge security risk so I can't see a company allowing this. If you could tap without authorization by the device owner you could initiate a number of harmful interactions, like spamming fake transactions to drain a card, or spoofing a reader to get user information, or sending malicious files, etc. Likely a no-go. I think the best we can hope for is no extra authentication once you're already in your phone--we've established that Google/Android pay don't require this, but Apple Pay does and so does Samsung Pay.

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Yeah, call me a luddite but I have zero intention in ever setting my phone up to pay for the T. Why use a $1k+ piece of electronics when a little plastic card does the trick just fine?
I totally get this but it has its advantages. With a fully built out app you'd have much better access to your account information; I can imagine you might be granted permission to view and track your comings and goings. Plus I don't know about you but I like carrying lighter; as many cards as I can eliminate from my wallet, the better I feel.

I'm not convinced this will be a smoother experience than the card though, it's hard to beat a simple tap.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:47 AM   #72
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post
Yeah, call me a luddite but I have zero intention in ever setting my phone up to pay for the T. Why use a $1k+ piece of electronics when a little plastic card does the trick just fine?
Think of it from the perspective of an infrequent rider. Not needing to worry about another card and how much money is on it would be godsend, particularly if you use a station/stop that won't have FVMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloBostonHi View Post

I personally am curious to see if they integrate corporate passes into the app or if those will remain physical card only. I'm also curious to see if passholders will still have to have tapped in before boarding... I would hope yes even if only for data purposes.
At least for the commuter rail, tapping in would be a must for passholders. (unless potentially you have a zone 10 pass southside or a zone 8 pass northside)
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:51 AM   #73
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Think of it from the perspective of an infrequent rider. Not needing to worry about another card and how much money is on it would be godsend, particularly if you use a station/stop that won't have FVMs.
This exactly. I think people are forgetting that AFC 2.0 allows you to pay directly from your debit/credit card with no "reloading" an account or buying tickets along the way. That's super useful for occasional riders and tourists to not have to worry about stored balances and all that crap... To be able to come to an MBTA station and tap on without needing a special MBTA app or card or ticket or hunting down a FVM is super useful, all you need is a smartphone with NFC in-store payments set up...
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:05 AM   #74
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

I have to imagine that AFC 2.0 on the commuter rail will come with a restructuring of the monthly pass system. My guess is that the days of unlimited rides will be over. A monthly pass would probably be a debit account with enough for about 20 round trips at a commuted rate (the origin of "commuter") for I imagine that you will need to tap in at the platform and tap out at the terminal within a certain time or be charged the maximum fare.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:45 PM   #75
fattony
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by cadetcarl View Post
I totally get this but it has its advantages. With a fully built out app you'd have much better access to your account information; I can imagine you might be granted permission to view and track your comings and goings. Plus I don't know about you but I like carrying lighter; as many cards as I can eliminate from my wallet, the better I feel.

I'm not convinced this will be a smoother experience than the card though, it's hard to beat a simple tap.
I'm just brainstorming here, but I think my ideal scenario would let me register/link my Charlie Card to my app account. I want to use the physical card for tapping, but I want to make purchases for the Charlie Card in the app and have any tracked data, etc available to me in the app. Implementing that seems fairly straightforward. You tap/scan/etc the Charlie Card to register it to your account and when you buy a pass or fare in the app you either assign it to the card or to your phone.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:49 PM   #76
fattony
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by Semass View Post
I have to imagine that AFC 2.0 on the commuter rail will come with a restructuring of the monthly pass system. My guess is that the days of unlimited rides will be over. A monthly pass would probably be a debit account with enough for about 20 round trips at a commuted rate (the origin of "commuter") for I imagine that you will need to tap in at the platform and tap out at the terminal within a certain time or be charged the maximum fare.
I certainly hope not! We should be bending over backwards to encourage use of commuter rail for non-commuter trips. It seems to me your existing monthly pass buyers are the low hanging fruit. Nickel and diming them seems counterproductive.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:54 PM   #77
HelloBostonHi
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

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Originally Posted by Semass View Post
I have to imagine that AFC 2.0 on the commuter rail will come with a restructuring of the monthly pass system. My guess is that the days of unlimited rides will be over. A monthly pass would probably be a debit account with enough for about 20 round trips at a commuted rate (the origin of "commuter") for I imagine that you will need to tap in at the platform and tap out at the terminal within a certain time or be charged the maximum fare.
I don't see any reason why they would do that at all. If you buy a public transit pass you expect unlimited transit (in your zones and abiding by peak rule hours). I see it more operating like a LinkPass on a CharlieCard does today, you tap in and out but you can as many times as you please, likely with a separate off-peak pass that allows you unlimited travel in off peak hours and directions. Now, the fare structure is firmly undecided so I'm NOT saying this is how it 100% will be, this is just my speculation here...
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:02 PM   #78
jass
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

As part of their AFc 2.0, SEPTA added a cap on all monthly passes.

Don't be SEPTA
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:20 PM   #79
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

^ 240 rides. Doesn't affect many people, but still kind of bullshit.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:30 AM   #80
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Re: Charlie Card/MBTA Fare Replacement system

In Japan, you can use Apple Pay instead of a Suica card. They get around the need for auth by allowing you to set an “Express Transit Card”. You can also use your default transit card when your phone runs out of battery (but when you can still get the phone to show you the empty battery screen).

I’m not sure how much of this is Felica specific, but I’d love if this is what we get on the mobile side of things.
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