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Old 06-12-2017, 05:53 PM   #21
stellarfun
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Developer finances purchase with a 4.5 percent note for $150 million. Garage has <900 spaces, but assume 900 spaces. The 900 spaces each generate an average daily gross revenue of $25 a space every day of the year. Said developer loses big money when other costs (taxes, insurance, maintenance, utilities, security, etc.) are factored in.

I believe this is predominately a transient garage, unlike HT garage or IP garage. The Intercontinental garage went bankrupt, did it not?
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:02 PM   #22
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

It would all depend on the investors/corporations tax situation and their goal for the investment.

Some investors park their money and overpay for specific assets that can play just as a tangible safety net that generates income for the long-term if they decide that they can't find an investment that can generate adequate returns in the current market.

It seems the price tag and the #'s really don't make economic sense for the average joe but for a complex tax structured corporation/billionaire investor it just might make sense.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:22 PM   #23
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

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Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
I am. Get rid of the ramps. There are other ramps less than half a mile in either direction. Reconnect North Street.
That's crazy transit pitches territory. Exit 23 is too vital an entry point to central Boston to even consider that (though I'd selfishly love to see it done). You'd have better luck trying to realign the ramps. For example, get rid of the left onto North street and have all traffic merge right onto Cross. Traffic looking to head South/SW on Surface road could take the left at Hanover and left again on Surface (it's usually not too congested on Hanover between Cross and Surface during the morning rush). That would enable you to reconnect North and improve that greenway parcel drastically without eliminating the exit.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:26 AM   #24
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

^ It's definitely crazy in that it won't happen, but I highly doubt a realignment will either. I'm not convinced it's crazy because it shouldn't happen.

What location in Boston makes these (N/S) exits necessary? Show me a commute that can't be served by the other two ramp locations. I understand this will increase traffic at the other exits, but improved traffic flow on the highway will partially offset the increased travel time (more exits = more slowdowns). How much will commuter times increase and is the difference worth the deadening of this location?

This parking garage is a great location regardless, but the ramps significantly lower the value, and I could also almost guarantee you'd finally see real movement on the north end parking lot across the street. Of course uniting North St. (and possibly Commercial) would help to further reunite the north end with the rest of the city.

It goes without saying this would greatly improve the Greenway itself and insensitive a portion of car commuters to consider public transportation.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:07 AM   #25
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

We're war OT here, but what else is new...

^ This is the only NB exit between albany st. and levrett circle. Hard to get rid of that. SB is a different story.

Also / however - one of the big problems with current ramp alignment is that it makes it way too easy to 'bypass' traffic in the tunnel. e.g. if headed north in thick traffic, will often be faster to exit at GC, go through two traffic lights, then re-enter at Haymarket NB ramp and take advantage of the cantilever lanes over the Zakim which are almost alway free flowing. That means that the NB surface artery in front of the north end @ hanover st. is guaranteed to be as congested - or even more so - than the tunnel itself during rush hour. (There are many other examples...)
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:51 AM   #26
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

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^ This is the only NB exit between albany st. and levrett circle. Hard to get rid of that. SB is a different story.
(I don't think we're too off topic as this parcel is directly adjacent to the thread topic, and in my opinion at least, affects its development prospects.)

NB: How difficult would it be to merge with the exit at Haymarket? For some reason I thought this was already possible and don't really understand why it wasn't initially designed this way.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:35 AM   #27
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

^ the callahan tunnel access ramp goes across the top of the mainline tunnel between the GC exits (in front of the dock square garage) and the haymarket ramps.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:57 AM   #28
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

A very well thought out plan to develop this site without a doubt would be better for the city and the public.

But unless the city & state are giving unlimited tax incentives for this above parking garage I don't see the economics working unless they build tall on this complex site.

Above parking garages that generate revenue are extremely tough to just demolition and build. Too much risk involved.
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:31 PM   #29
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by stellarfun View Post
Developer finances purchase with a 4.5 percent note for $150 million. Garage has <900 spaces, but assume 900 spaces. The 900 spaces each generate an average daily gross revenue of $25 a space every day of the year. Said developer loses big money when other costs (taxes, insurance, maintenance, utilities, security, etc.) are factored in.

I believe this is predominately a transient garage, unlike HT garage or IP garage. The Intercontinental garage went bankrupt, did it not?
Wouldn't gross be closer to an average of $40 or 50 per space? The parking rates here are high and there is turnover. Plus lease income. That is in the realm of paying back a loan in 10 or 15 years and being in the black with additional development potential.
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:45 PM   #30
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

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^ the callahan tunnel access ramp goes across the top of the mainline tunnel between the GC exits (in front of the dock square garage) and the haymarket ramps.
Yeah, I completely misunderstood this arrangement. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'm still in favor of closing the southbound ramp, reconnecting North St, and exiting northbound traffic directly onto Cross.

This would still help with access to the North End and to connect the Greenway. The ramp could be pretty well hidden from the Dock Square site.

That is all unless there is something else I'm missing.
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Old 06-13-2017, 12:55 PM   #31
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Quote:
Originally Posted by tangent View Post
Wouldn't gross be closer to an average of $40 or 50 per space? The parking rates here are high and there is turnover. Plus lease income. That is in the realm of paying back a loan in 10 or 15 years and being in the black with additional development potential.
The Boston Common garage, 1350 spaces (more than 50 percent more spaces than Dock Square), had gross revenue of about $13 million in the fiscal year ending last June.

A quick amortization calculation of a $150,000,000 loan at 4.5 percent interest for a 20 year period (240 months) generates a monthly principal and interest payment of about $1.02 million. Multiply by 12 for the yearly sum. (If the note was at 5.,5 percent interest, the annual payment increases by about $1 million.)
_________________________________________

From the MCCA financial statement for fiscal 2016
Quote:
Revenues at the Boston Common Garage totaled $13 million in fiscal year 2015. This represented an increase of $1 million from fiscal year 2014, or 11%. The increase corresponds to the rate increases that were adopted at the beginning of the fiscal year for daily and monthly parking services. Given the pricing increase the Authority budgeted for a reduced utilization at the garage, however this effect was more pronounced than forecast for the year.
There was resistance to the new price point for parking. 2016 revenues were flat for the BCG.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:10 AM   #32
TheRifleman
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Not sure how high parking spots continue to be worth in Boston. But seriously this is extreme:
I would say the Value of Parking spots are priceless until we invent flying vehicles or other means of transportation.

Wonder if this is with help of inflation or just based on supply vs demand?


I saw this in the TIMES:
A $664,000 Parking Spot Symbolizes Hong Kong’s Property Frenzy

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/w...cle-click&_r=1

Last edited by TheRifleman; 06-15-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 06-15-2017, 03:16 PM   #33
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Remember the absurd price a parking spot in Beacon Hill went for a couple years ago?

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/11/0...et-for-650000/
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Old 06-15-2017, 03:29 PM   #34
TheRifleman
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

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Originally Posted by Scalziand View Post
Remember the absurd price a parking spot in Beacon Hill went for a couple years ago?

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/11/0...et-for-650000/

Wonder if they sold the parking spot for and how much was the final price.

It might be absurd but somebody who has unlimited money---TIME becomes money especially looking for parking in the city .
I would buy a parking spot if I had tens-of-millions for $600,000 to avoid the frustration. No big deal in the end.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:29 PM   #35
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

$170M for Dock Square garage

https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveAdamsTweet
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:45 PM   #36
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Yikes that's a lot of money. Anyone in the know have a feel for what kind of unit numbers would be needed to make a residential project economically viable? I'm guessing you'd need some significant height also to offset demo, construction and land costs.
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:48 PM   #37
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

^^easy one; max FAA.

sensitive parcel. tough to go tall.

Have the principals had conversations with Walsh Admn for development?
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:53 PM   #38
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

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easy one; max FAA.
Good luck fighting NEWRA and Beacon Hill. Congress St. got downsized.

This feels like a good parcel for something architecturally significant.
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:12 PM   #39
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Does this sale impact the value of the aquarium garage? A lot of people (nimbys) like to say that Chiofaro overpaid and that's why he needs zoning relief to make the numbers work. But if the parking revenue justifies the spend and now this sale is able to peg current market value for aquarium garage...anyone know what that value could be? Did Chiofaro overpay ?
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:14 PM   #40
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Re: Dock Square Parking Garage, 20 Clinton Street

Seller was the developer of the garage (who bought it from the BRA for $528,700 in 1979) (undeveloped land); details and photos of site in 1979 forthcoming.

Buyer is apparently Fortis Property Group, a Brooklyn, NY company controlled by Louis Kestenbaum and his family, according to it website. Google his name and you get some interesting results. ("Massive Jewish Corruption" and "Developer Has Checkered Past .."

PS. Yes, as mentioned in subsequent post, Fortis also owns State Street / Lincoln Street Tower.

So the ramps would preclude building anything underground, yes?



This thing is huge.






Last edited by JohnAKeith; 09-20-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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