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Old 01-08-2019, 04:06 PM   #341
TomOfBoston
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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You have clearly never tried to book a hotel room in Boston if you think the hotel market is pretty saturated. I paid $300 for a night at the Courtyard North Station (which is actually pretty nice). Any hotel room in Boston at any rate is expensive and hard to get.
Room cleaners (chambermaids) start at $28/hour plus tips. Also hotels are taxed to the hilt by the city. That's Boston!
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:47 PM   #342
odurandina
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

The developer should seek a partner.

Millennium Partners are tough negotiators.... but obscenely rich.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:22 PM   #343
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by navigator4 View Post
You have clearly never tried to book a hotel room in Boston if you think the hotel market is pretty saturated. I paid $300 for a night at the Courtyard North Station (which is actually pretty nice). Any hotel room in Boston at any rate is expensive and hard to get.
Price you pay is totally dependent upon when you want the room... per the 3Q18 PKF report 2018 ADR was $196 across the city (all price points, 65 properties with 19,208 rooms in CBD) with REVPar of $155.... RevPAR was actually flat YoY (like for real... 0.0% increase over 2017, and CBD is the worst of the 6 submarkets). Even among upper priced segment in CBD pricing was $251 on YE occupancy of 79.3% so there are rooms out there. Keep in mind you need to develop to your average capacity, not your peak capacity.

Also as it pertains to rate, as with airlines, there is a wide range of pricing depending upon that night's segment mix. Boston at the upper end has plenty of rooms / plenty of meeting space / no real need to add a new upper end flag. the city does just fine at high end.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:24 PM   #344
Czervik.Construction
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

That is exactly my point. I stayed at the Loews not too long ago and it was over $400 / night. I know the Loews on the upper end, but it is not 4 Seasons / Ritz / Mandarin level. I think there is room for more luxury hotels in Boston (as well as just more hotels in general).

Quote:
Originally Posted by navigator4 View Post
You have clearly never tried to book a hotel room in Boston if you think the hotel market is pretty saturated. I paid $300 for a night at the Courtyard North Station (which is actually pretty nice). Any hotel room in Boston at any rate is expensive and hard to get.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:25 PM   #345
stoweker
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by odurandina View Post
The developer should seek a partner.

Millennium Partners are tough negotiators.... but obscenely rich.
They are seeking a partner, just not another GP like millenium. For all intents and purposes Millenium and Saunders are the same thing, just merchant developers in a GP position on deals. They need a PE/HF group to step into the 90% equity spot and raise the debt from a development lender to move forward.

Saunders is a deeply experienced hotel operator, millenium is not, so that is kind of a silly tosser comment.
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:26 PM   #346
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by Czervik.Construction View Post
That is exactly my point. I stayed at the Loews not too long ago and it was over $400 / night. I know the Loews on the upper end, but it is not 4 Seasons / Ritz / Mandarin level. I think there is room for more luxury hotels in Boston (as well as just more hotels in general).
Not really.... hotel business is highly cyclical and there's limited demand growth right now / flattening RevPAR growth. Boston has a healthy market right now, no need to dump a ton of new supply into it.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:42 AM   #347
Jouhou
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by stoweker View Post
Not really.... hotel business is highly cyclical and there's limited demand growth right now / flattening RevPAR growth. Boston has a healthy market right now, no need to dump a ton of new supply into it.
I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of demand if prices weren't insane. Like I mentioned before, I can stay in far more luxurious hotels in most other major cities for what I pay for the average room in Boston. And I spend weekends in Boston during the offseason!

Anyone who's casually looking for a destination to visit (rather than obligated to as with business travel) will probably look at a different city after looking at hotel prices in Boston.

I don't think a market that has been chronically under-supplied to the point of unaffordable prices will behave the same when you dump supply into the market as cities that don't suffer from the same problem.

It's like the housing market, once prices become unaffordable to a middle class income sales will slow, but demand for anything below that financial cut off point is still high.

With the numbers you brought into the picture, that's even further proof of my point. $196 ADR isn't cheap and is probably around the upper price limit for middle class, upper middle class, travelers.

The flat RevPAR would indicate that with all new supply coming online there is not flat demand. That's more visitors, bringing more overall money into the market.

Also those numbers vary depending on where you get info:

http://www.pkfboston.com/publication...ustry/q3-2018/

and a comparison of U.S. cities using 2017 numbers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...l-prices-2010/

This has monthly comparisons:
https://www.bostonusa.com/media/stat...gs-statistics/

We're too damn expensive for the average tourist and businesses are sending their travelers further and further out into the boonies to save money.

Last edited by Jouhou; 01-09-2019 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:07 AM   #348
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

Terrible situation.

Boston market could probably handle the equivalent of 2 more Four Seasons
and 1 or 2 MT scaled projects in the coming years.

To see a developer performing so poorly in a strong good market is disappointing.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:34 AM   #349
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

I was initially optimistic but I think if there was demand for more luxury hotels you’d have had Marriott, Hilton and Hyatt fighting to slap one of their luxury flags on this.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:43 AM   #350
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Room cleaners (chambermaids) start at $28/hour plus tips. Also hotels are taxed to the hilt by the city. That's Boston!
I question if that hourly wage is true. However, $28 an hour will not buy a house in a city with a median home price of $650,000. How very Republican of you, blame the working person for price of luxury hotel rooms, that's Trumpville, PA!
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:01 PM   #351
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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I question if that hourly wage is true. However, $28 an hour will not buy a house in a city with a median home price of $650,000. How very Republican of you, blame the working person for price of luxury hotel rooms, that's Trumpville, PA!
If we want hotel room cleaners to be able to purchase a house in Boston on a single hourly salary we're going to need to build a lot more houses... There simply aren't enough houses to make that anywhere close to possible.

Hotel rooms and houses are both expensive in Boston because demand is high and supply is low. It really is that simple.
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:12 PM   #352
Sprngh2o
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by Scott View Post
I question if that hourly wage is true. However, $28 an hour will not buy a house in a city with a median home price of $650,000. How very Republican of you, blame the working person for price of luxury hotel rooms, that's Trumpville, PA!
“How Republican of you”....so funny
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:53 PM   #353
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by JumboBuc View Post

Hotel rooms and houses are both expensive in Boston because demand is high and supply is low. It really is that simple.
Correct, it is supply and demand in a booming land poor city, not the modest hourly wage of the "chambermaid." Expensive houses and hotel rooms is a First World problem caused by the city's success. The fact that this development requires a handsome old school office building to be torn down can also be attributed to the previously mentioned forces
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:59 PM   #354
Czervik.Construction
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

I paid $400 a night for 3 nights. Plus reasonable meals (i.e., no blowouts at Del Frisco's), my trip cost around $1500, not including travel to Boston.

I really do not consider that balance. If I was a family looking for a place to vacation, I would take my $400 a night and go elsewhere.

Tells me that there is far more demand than supply. Especially with all the pharma expansion going on in Cantabrigia.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:09 PM   #355
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Tells me that there is far more demand than supply. Especially with all the pharma expansion going on in Cantabrigia.
exactly.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:18 PM   #356
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

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Originally Posted by TomOfBoston View Post
Room cleaners (chambermaids) start at $28/hour plus tips. Also hotels are taxed to the hilt by the city. That's Boston!
Boston isn't even in the top 50 US cities for hotel/lodging tax rates.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:18 PM   #357
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Re: 40 Trinity Place | 426 Stuart Street | Back Bay

I was able to get $109 a night in the seaport a few months ago.

Thanks Priceline express deals!
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