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Old 01-28-2014, 09:02 AM   #21
alexander
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Originally Posted by cozzyd View Post
Maybe if the parking is free it could be competitive?
Free parking is a start, but with Wonderland at $5 a day its only one piece of the puzzle. There are plenty of bus routes nearby at the commuter rail station, that could easily be re-routed to access the new ferry terminal. Would a 1A rate work for the ferry (and commuter rail)? The MBTA and CR might take a hit for the first five years, but the immediate development it would spur in Lynn, could alleviate the loss. An investment in future increased fares seems reasonable, but would the MBTA take the risk?
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:18 AM   #22
cozzyd
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

I don't see how you could reroute the bus stops without adding a delay for everyone going from Lynn to Wonderland. I think some buses already stop at Bubier street, but it's probably a desolate walk down Blossom St to get to the terminal...

Probably lowering the price of CR tickets would be the most effective thing to do in the short term. Also, the Salem expresses could probably stand to stop at Lynn as well, which would give Lynn 20 minute or better headways during the morning and afternoon rushes.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:51 AM   #23
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

These are the rates for the Salem ferry:

Rates
Adults
Seniors
Child
Round Trip: $29
One-Way: $17
Ten Ride: $135

Commuter/Adult*
Round Trip: $16
One-Way: $8
Ten Ride: $72
Round Trip: $24
One-Way: $14
Ten Ride: $115

Commuter/Seniors*
Round Trip: $8
One-Way: $4
Ten Ride: $36
Round Trip: $24
One-Way: $14
Ten Ride: $115

Commuter/Children**
Round Trip: $8
One-Way: $4
Ten Ride: $36
*7 AM and 5:30 PM departures ONLY
**Rates apply to children ages 3-11yrs
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:09 AM   #24
Matthew
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

No point in connecting transit if there's only two roundtrips per day...
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:18 AM   #25
cbrett
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

If this takes 25-30 minutes to get to Boston and $8 per trip it's hard to see the merits compared to a 15-20 minuteand $2 ride from Wonderland. If the busses weren't such a pain or the blue line was extended, there would really be no justification for this service.
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:19 AM   #26
cbrett
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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No point in connecting transit if there's only two roundtrips per day...
I also don't think someone's willing to pay the higher cost of the ferry if they have to take the bus there. If you're taking the bus, it's cheaper and easier to just go to Wonderland.
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:26 PM   #27
alexander
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Really silly. Extend the damn Blue Line and give Lynn the transit it deserves. I have friends who live in Lynn and all of them drive to Wonderland instead of taking the Commuter Rail. Lynn wants rapid transit. This is not rapid by any means.
Rapid transit in Lynn would be a game changer, spurring new development on the waterfront and in the old GE gear plant. Once these sites are developed and Lynn development hits critical mass, bring us the ferry. In the meantime, give us the Blue Line extension or a 1a CR fare at Central. Lynn has been waiting for rapid transit since the 1927 Coolidge Commission Report... and their are still 90,000 people that want to take the T directly into Boston.
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:05 PM   #28
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Rapid transit in Lynn would be a game changer, spurring new development on the waterfront
Holy whoa - I've never seen that presentation before. They're talking about literally dozens of 10-20 story towers. The Lynn waterfront could become a mini-Vancouver!
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:13 PM   #29
F-Line to Dudley
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Holy whoa - I've never seen that presentation before. They're talking about literally dozens of 10-20 story towers. The Lynn waterfront could become a mini-Vancouver!
That would be the only thing meriting a ferry, because it would also attract new bus routes down there.

But the development has to precede the ferry. By a lot. And get pretty far along before it's supportable. There's no there there introducing it as bait if there isn't surrounding development. The bus access from the rest of town is too satisfactory to Wonderland and too ops-awkward to loop at a ferry terminal en route to Wonderland unless there's enough waterfront development to anchor new routes.

It doesn't work as a chicken vs. egg binary decision. It's too narrow a transit niche to have any value whatsoever at attracting development; it can only complement after the people are already there.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:16 PM   #30
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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More importantly, try standing in front of a Lynn town meeting and getting their enthusiastic buy-in stating that Marblehead is one of the top constituencies for the Lynn ferry.

"Yeah...so? I have to walk a half-mile past industrial blight from the nearest bus stop to catch this thing. How is that any faster than the express bus to Wonderland I've been taking to work for the last 10 years?"
F-Line -- there are no Lynn Town Meetings -- you are thinking perhaps Lynnfield

Lynn is a city and has the same kind of governance as Boston or Lowell with a mayor and council

http://www.ci.lynn.ma.us/
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:30 PM   #31
F-Line to Dudley
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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F-Line -- there are no Lynn Town Meetings -- you are thinking perhaps Lynnfield

Lynn is a city and has the same kind of governance as Boston or Lowell with a mayor and council

http://www.ci.lynn.ma.us/
Fascinating. That totally changes the entire mechanics of how the citizens of Lynn interact with their government in a meeting setting and has the utmost relevance to the thread!


Boy...you are on an off-topic roll this week, whigh.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:35 PM   #32
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

Well, if Lynn would pull a mini-Vancouver and upzone mightily around the Blue Line station, if it were to be built, then that would be great. Any way to hold them to that commitment?
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:27 AM   #33
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Originally Posted by F-Line to Dudley View Post
Fascinating. That totally changes the entire mechanics of how the citizens of Lynn interact with their government in a meeting setting and has the utmost relevance to the thread!


Boy...you are on an off-topic roll this week, whigh.
F-Line actually it does --- Boston's Mayor and City Council can essentially ignore the voters except for the occasional threat to the re-election of some member of the council or even more rarely the Mayor. All the rest of the decisions can only be influenced in an advisory fashion by the average citizen.

In a true open town meeting such as the smaller suburbs like Lincoln -- the average tax payer has a much greater say in what gets approved for funding, zoning changes, etc.

In a place like Lexington with a "Modified Town Meeting" there is a body known as Town Meeting Members -- something like a much expanded-scale city council who sit between the voters who elect them and the budget approval process -- and then the rest of the year the Selectmen [functioning something like a collective executive] make the decisions unless a special town meeting or election [e.g. Prop 2.5 Override] is held.

Lynn -- having a mayor and council can pretty-much do as it pleases since I'll bet that the turnout in the city elections is fairly abysmal.

The challenge that Lynn faces is that even though its just north and east of Boston -- it could be on the other side of the planet. Very few people in the upper middle / Knowledge workers commute from Lynn to Boston and even fewer in that demographic work in Lynn.

The supreme Irony is that one of the fastest / widest bandwidth TransAtlantic Fiber Cable comes ashore in Lynn [Hybernia 2 -- Lynn to Novascotia to Ireland/Northern Ireland] the ultimate terminations are in Boston MA [Innerbelt in Sommerville & 1 Summer St. aka the Macy's building in DTX] and London UK -- it could be a major selling point for an Innovation District

Lynn NOC and Landing 91 Commercial St.




70 Innerbelt Rd. Sommerville



1 Summer St.



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Old 01-29-2014, 08:45 AM   #34
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

I think we have a new world record on most e-ink spilled on a completely off topic response. I'll alert Guinness.
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Old 01-29-2014, 10:55 AM   #35
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

Does anyone think the DMU service proposed in the MBTA's Capital Investment Plan will be frequent enough/priced appropriately to negate the need for the Blue Line extension? Will DMU+ferry be enough?
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:34 AM   #36
F-Line to Dudley
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Originally Posted by MBTAddict View Post
Does anyone think the DMU service proposed in the MBTA's Capital Investment Plan will be frequent enough/priced appropriately to negate the need for the Blue Line extension? Will DMU+ferry be enough?
No. Absolutely not. The ferry is twice a day and has the aforementioned problems with lack of bus connections to its location. That one's got a lot of question marks on what it will actually serve. The DMU will only top a max 15 min. headway and (barring a plan change that the state's giving no indication it's ready to do) will be considerably more expensive than the current bus to Wonderland + Blue transfer if Lynn's abnormally high Zone fare doesn't get adjusted down. And Lynn is a skeptical audience anyway after decades of getting jerked around on transit. They need convincing, and I don't think anyone buys that this can be a permanent Blue replacement or wants to let the state off the hook on dropping that forever.


There's also additional issues to sort out on the traffic modeling on whether the Eastern Route can truly be dispatched at 15 min. headways through the Chelsea bottlenecks and state-of-repair issues that give it a relatively poor on-time performance today. All we know this early on is that 15 mins. is the goal and a theoretical max that's theoretically achievable. The follow-through traffic modeling has to prove with detailed data that the service plan is doable and doesn't require a large commitment of additional infrastructure $$$ not currently programmed in order to make it work. So it's naturally impossible to judge today--1/28/2014--whether the DMU will execute its intended service plan. And thus Lynn can't really draw any conclusions today as to whether it's enough improvement over the Wonderland bus.

Doesn't mean the odds are poor; it's just too early for certainty. We'll know soon enough. I would just hold off the enthusiasm until the hard modeling data confirms and gives the service plan the all-clear. And be prepared to be disappointed if compromises have to be made lengthening the headway closer to 20 mins. or slightly more irregular than intended. The performance range hasn't been pinned down with that exacting an accuracy yet. And any wholly plausible means of closing gaps that remain would have to get confirmed commitments of funding. Also too early to tell before the hard data gets released.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:39 AM   #37
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBTAddict View Post
Does anyone think the DMU service proposed in the MBTA's Capital Investment Plan will be frequent enough/priced appropriately to negate the need for the Blue Line extension? Will DMU+ferry be enough?
Lynn deserves rapid transit, just like Quincy. Lynn doesn't just need service into Boston, but service to get around and into the city.

That said, the DMU could be used while constructing the infastructure needed for the blue line in bits and pieces.

1) Build two layover tracks on the former marblehead line after swampscott, extend DMU service there.

2) Reopen East Lynn station and relocate Riverworks/West Lynn further east so its useful and can spawn some TOD. Possibly add a station at Oak Island

3) Rebuild the old freight branch to Airport, allowing a cross platform transfer to the Blue Line, Chelsea Silver Line and Massport shuttles. (This is where most of the BL extension plans not using the Point of Pines routing have it splitting off). Also possibility for a station for Revere at the Junction near Winthrop St. Also allows headway increases since you no longer have to deal with Chelsea.

4) Begin quad tracking between Eastie and Swampscott

5) Convert it over to the blue line!

6) Get the blue line to Salem, figure out how to send the DMUs to Danvers.

1, 2 and 3 can all happen at the same time or in a different order.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:55 AM   #38
alexander
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Lynn deserves rapid transit, just like Quincy.
Quincy's population: 93,000
Lynn's population: 91,000

Quincy's T stations: 4
Lynn's T stations: 0

Talk about choosing winners and losers... That 2,000 person differential must really swing the MBTAs decision making! I guess my politicians aren't bribing the right people...
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:05 PM   #39
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

^ Don't feel too bad. The T's operating attitude towards expansion of service falls quite broadly into "ignore it, and it will go away." Given the broken state of their funding, it's hard to blame them. The Authority doesn't seem to effectively advocate the legislature for itself though. Not sure if it's general incompetence or a plan to let things deteriorate until the legislature is forced to act out of economic necessity.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:00 PM   #40
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Re: Ferry to Lynn?

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Originally Posted by alexander View Post
Quincy's population: 93,000
Lynn's population: 91,000

Quincy's T stations: 4
Lynn's T stations: 0

Talk about choosing winners and losers... That 2,000 person differential must really swing the MBTAs decision making! I guess my politicians aren't bribing the right people...
Alexander -- No its quite simple:

1) Quincy
a] sits on two major highways and is the gateway to the Southshore
b] former major employer -- Quincy Fore River Shipbuilding
c] Granite Links
d] City of Presidents
e] has become a site for office parks and increasingly more upscale residences

2) Lynn
a] sits on no major highway -- you really don't need to go to Lynn to get anywhere
b] former major employer GE
c] Lynn Woods
d] City of Sin -- "you never come out the way you went in"
e] not even competing with Revere for upscaleness

I think the difference is in the different demographics of Lynn and Quincy -- neither is going to be confused with Newton [about the same size] as a city/suburb
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