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Old 04-10-2017, 02:47 PM   #3421
adamh8297
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I don't think the Shuttle will be that adversely impacted by JetBlue. Most of those people are loyal American customers - many ExPlats and CKs. They aren't going to switch allegiances to an airline that for the most part doesn't meet their other travel needs.
There are also corporate contracts that would prefer their employees use the airline with the best schedule.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:14 PM   #3422
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I wouldn't use United either as my allegiances are with BA and One World in general but the 777 is only used on one or two flights. The rest are 757s.
Considering their horrendous PR, the presence of jetblue, etc no well informed passenger should be opting for United at this point. Don't encourage airlines to treat humans as cattle.
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Old 04-10-2017, 05:20 PM   #3423
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Considering their horrendous PR, the presence of jetblue, etc no well informed passenger should be opting for United at this point. Don't encourage airlines to treat humans as cattle.
I just go for the cheapest option (with baggage fees added in).
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Old 04-11-2017, 06:49 AM   #3424
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I just go for the cheapest option (with baggage fees added in).
Which is exactly why United can get away with this crap. Please try to be a bit more selective in your purchasing of air travel.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:36 AM   #3425
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

I'm not trying to defend United - they clearly messed up here in a big way. But their policies and practices are not unique. This could have happened on any US airline. People get bumped off flights every day. What was unique about this situation is that a passenger resisted the practice (good for him!) and then got manhandled by the law enforcement authorities.

I've flown a lot on the US3, and in general I've had both terrible and great experiences on all of them. What it really comes down to is who is on the clock that day. Sometimes you get amazing staff and crew, other times you get a sourpuss who ruins your flight.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:41 AM   #3426
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

At least on Southwest the flight attendants would do a song and dance routine as the poor sap was dragged down the aisle.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:37 AM   #3427
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I'm not trying to defend United - they clearly messed up here in a big way. But their policies and practices are not unique. This could have happened on any US airline. People get bumped off flights every day. What was unique about this situation is that a passenger resisted the practice (good for him!) and then got manhandled by the law enforcement authorities.

I've flown a lot on the US3, and in general I've had both terrible and great experiences on all of them. What it really comes down to is who is on the clock that day. Sometimes you get amazing staff and crew, other times you get a sourpuss who ruins your flight.
I donít fly a ton (usually 4-5 times a year) and have never had any issues with UA, AA or DL. Then again I donít have the largest sample size. I flew Virgin America (people seem to rave about them) for the first time this past Friday out to SFO and was not impressed at all. They apparently had a crew shortage and completely cancelled my 7:20 am flight. They sent an email out at 4 am to alert us to the cancellation and their customer service line was busy and severely understaffed. The best they could do for us was to send us out on a 4 pm flight the next day which to me is not acceptable at all (they did not even offer to book us on another airline). I can understand weather delays are out of their control and safety comes first, but this was a screw up by them. All United and JetBlue flights to SFO that day left on time. Also the Alaska/Sun Country/Virgin gates at Logan are atrocious.


Anyways, it will be interesting to see what DL has in the works for Boston next year once the Terminal B project is complete and Southwest moves over there to free up 4 (?) gates in A for Delta.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:44 AM   #3428
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by FenwayResident View Post
I'm not trying to defend United - they clearly messed up here in a big way. But their policies and practices are not unique. This could have happened on any US airline. People get bumped off flights every day. What was unique about this situation is that a passenger resisted the practice (good for him!) and then got manhandled by the law enforcement authorities.

I've flown a lot on the US3, and in general I've had both terrible and great experiences on all of them. What it really comes down to is who is on the clock that day. Sometimes you get amazing staff and crew, other times you get a sourpuss who ruins your flight.
Messed up in a big way? All procedures were followed by UA's personnel at O'Hare. They had an operational need to position four crewmembers of a United Express partner to SDF to support the operation of a flight the following morning. FAA required minimum rest and applicable collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) have certain requirements of the timing and conditions necessary. Volunteers were solicited to receive vouchers for future travel on United/United Express up to $1000, plus overnight accommodation and meal vouchers. No one volunteered, so UA had to involuntarily deny boarding to several passengers, which requires cold hard cash per the US DOT guidelines.

Said passenger refused to de-board the aircraft when directed by United personnel and later Chicago Airport police and was forcibly removed. As someone who works in the industry and has directly worked for two carriers, the traveling public and media are generally clueless about how airlines operate and actually make money. Airlines are easy targets for the media and consumer groups. That said, UA desperately needs better social media personnel. Telling the traveling public over social media that the contract of carriage allows them to deny boarding to someone who is insubordinate and could be a liability is asking for confrontation.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:50 AM   #3429
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

^ This incident is being discussed over in the Open Thread
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:07 AM   #3430
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Messed up in a big way? All procedures were followed by UA's personnel at O'Hare. They had an operational need to position four crewmembers of a United Express partner to SDF to support the operation of a flight the following morning. FAA required minimum rest and applicable collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) have certain requirements of the timing and conditions necessary. Volunteers were solicited to receive vouchers for future travel on United/United Express up to $1000, plus overnight accommodation and meal vouchers. No one volunteered, so UA had to involuntarily deny boarding to several passengers, which requires cold hard cash per the US DOT guidelines.

Said passenger refused to de-board the aircraft when directed by United personnel and later Chicago Airport police and was forcibly removed. As someone who works in the industry and has directly worked for two carriers, the traveling public and media are generally clueless about how airlines operate and actually make money. Airlines are easy targets for the media and consumer groups. That said, UA desperately needs better social media personnel. Telling the traveling public over social media that the contract of carriage allows them to deny boarding to someone who is insubordinate and could be a liability is asking for confrontation.
"All procedures were followed" and yet UA is in this mess after a 69 year old customer got knocked unconscious on their plane. Maybe there is something wrong with the procedures then? I've noticed a tendency for airline employees, in person and online, to hide behind procedures as a shield when anything goes wrong.

There are numerous ways this could have been prevented:

1) Keep offering more money until someone bites. At some point someone will think it's worthwhile to give up their seat. Let the free market dictate how much it's worth. However, numerous eye witness accounts state that UA offered $800 (not $1000) ONCE and then started to IDB people. A passenger even offered to give up his seat for $1600 but was refused. So, put another way, for $1600 UA could have avoided this whole mess. That's a huge mess up.

2) Fly the crew somewhere close to Louisville and then drive them the rest of the way in a cab/van/bus. There are numerous airports within a 1-2 hour drive that had flights leaving O'hare later that day, per airliners.net. This would take some coordination and a bit more $$$ - I can see why the gate agent would much rather call the cops than try to work it out.

3) Cancel/delay the next day's flight until they can get crew for it. It sucks for those passengers, but it is UA's responsibility to have crew for its flights, not the poor doctor who got knocked unconscious.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:19 AM   #3431
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by FenwayResident View Post
"All procedures were followed" and yet UA is in this mess after a 69 year old customer got knocked unconscious on their plane. Maybe there is something wrong with the procedures then? I've noticed a tendency for airline employees, in person and online, to hide behind procedures as a shield when anything goes wrong.

There are numerous ways this could have been prevented:

1) Keep offering more money until someone bites. At some point someone will think it's worthwhile to give up their seat. Let the free market dictate how much it's worth. However, numerous eye witness accounts state that UA offered $800 (not $1000) ONCE and then started to IDB people. A passenger even offered to give up his seat for $1600 but was refused. So, put another way, for $1600 UA could have avoided this whole mess. That's a huge mess up.

2) Fly the crew somewhere close to Louisville and then drive them the rest of the way in a cab/van/bus. There are numerous airports within a 1-2 hour drive that had flights leaving O'hare later that day, per airliners.net. This would take some coordination and a bit more $$$ - I can see why the gate agent would much rather call the cops than try to work it out.

3) Cancel/delay the next day's flight until they can get crew for it. It sucks for those passengers, but it is UA's responsibility to have crew for its flights, not the poor doctor who got knocked unconscious.
I understand your point on employees justifying things with procedures but that is not the case here.

(1) How much should UA offer up to? In most cases especially over $500, discretionary leisure travelers will happily stay behind and enjoy being hotel, wined and dined by UA. Apparently there weren't any on this flight and everyone had to get to Louisville for some reason. Take it up with the US DOT, they establish the IDB guidelines which UA adhered to.

(2) Again, there are FAA minimum rest requirements, plus restrictions above and beyond these levels in the Republic CBAs. Given the time of day and flight loads over the weekend an alternative airport likely would not have been feasible. Operations and crew scheduling for Republic (someone sitting in an office near Indianapolis) made that determination-not the UA personnel on hand. The UA agents and even management-certainly at the station level-aren't empowered to unilaterally make such decisions.

(3) Delaying or cancelling the flight costs money, and it would inconvenience a plane full of people plus have downstream impact on operations the following day. If the passenger had complied with PCE agent's directions and then de-boarded the aircraft when asked by Chicago Airport Police, none of this would have happened.

This is beyond the scope of this thread and there is an alternative forum if we must continue this line of discussion. Again, the traveling public and media especially are often unaware of how carriers actually operate, make operational decisions, and (try to) make money.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:08 AM   #3432
jass
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

I started hating United after taking a flight from San Diego to Newark.

5-6 hour flight time on a new plane.
  • Rock hard seats, less comfortable than the red line
    Minimal legroom
    ZERO entertainment options
    1. No overhead movies
    2. No seat back movies
    3. No armrest radio
    No power outlets
    No free snacks or food

These days United competes with Spirit and Frontier.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:26 AM   #3433
kmp1284
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by jass View Post
I started hating United after taking a flight from San Diego to Newark.

5-6 hour flight time on a new plane.
  • Rock hard seats, less comfortable than the red line
    Minimal legroom
    ZERO entertainment options
    1. No overhead movies
    2. No seat back movies
    3. No armrest radio
    No power outlets
    No free snacks or food

These days United competes with Spirit and Frontier.
There's this great thing called first class. If you want a better experience, pay for it.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:30 AM   #3434
JeffDowntown
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

Quote:
Originally Posted by jass View Post
I started hating United after taking a flight from San Diego to Newark.

5-6 hour flight time on a new plane.
  • Rock hard seats, less comfortable than the red line
    Minimal legroom
    ZERO entertainment options
    1. No overhead movies
    2. No seat back movies
    3. No armrest radio
    No power outlets
    No free snacks or food

These days United competes with Spirit and Frontier.
For years now, customers have been consistently selecting for the very lowest airfare available above all else.

That purchasing behavior drives the kind of customer experience. You shop for cheap transportation, you get cheap transportation.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:34 AM   #3435
Jouhou
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by kmp1284 View Post
There's this great thing called first class. If you want a better experience, pay for it.
or pay the same at a better airline. That's ultra low cost kind of quality we are talking about here, without ultra low pricing.

As for virgin America, I think we've all learned from experience that once a merger is announced, the quality of service plummets for both airlines involved, especially the one being taken over. The employees never take well to an uncertain future.

A decline in service right about now could be expected, I really wish we'd block these mergers.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:39 AM   #3436
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by LH421 View Post
the traveling public

...

the traveling public
Quote:
Originally Posted by LH421 View Post
the traveling public
I will give you $800 to stop using this phrase. Whether or not the traveling public is aware of how United operates is entirely irrelevant. Forcing someone who has bought and paid for a ticket off a plane is a shit policy. The fact that you don't understand that speaks to how little you know about how the traveling public (viz. human beings) operates.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:42 AM   #3437
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Anyways, it will be interesting to see what DL has in the works for Boston next year once the Terminal B project is complete and Southwest moves over there to free up 4 (?) gates in A for Delta.
To keep this on topic - Delta has a lot varied aircraft which could help them launch some other destinations in US that JetBlue cannot. I could see the following

Increase Florida
Chicago-O'Hare - this one has to happen
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
Madison WI/Louisville/Omaha with E175
New Orleans
Aruba
St. Maarten
San Juan - seasonally perhaps but they don't like to start new Caribbean markets from Logan
Manchester UK - take it over from Virgin with 757
Barcelona - Beat Norwegian and Level/IAG to the punch
Rome -seasonally if Alitalia bites the dust.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:56 AM   #3438
mass88
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by adamh8297 View Post
To keep this on topic - Delta has a lot varied aircraft which could help them launch some other destinations in US that JetBlue cannot. I could see the following

Increase Florida
Chicago-O'Hare - this one has to happen
Pittsburgh
Buffalo
Madison WI/Louisville/Omaha with E175
New Orleans
Aruba
St. Maarten
San Juan - seasonally perhaps but they don't like to start new Caribbean markets from Logan
Manchester UK - take it over from Virgin with 757
Barcelona - Beat Norwegian and Level/IAG to the punch
Rome -seasonally if Alitalia bites the dust.
Chicago will be very interesting as it will turn that market into a bigger bloodbath. Delta would be the 5th carrier in the ORD/MDW market.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:01 PM   #3439
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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Originally Posted by LH421 View Post
Messed up in a big way? All procedures were followed by UA's personnel at O'Hare. They had an operational need to position four crewmembers of a United Express partner to SDF to support the operation of a flight the following morning. FAA required minimum rest and applicable collective bargaining agreements (CBAs) have certain requirements of the timing and conditions necessary. Volunteers were solicited to receive vouchers for future travel on United/United Express up to $1000, plus overnight accommodation and meal vouchers. No one volunteered, so UA had to involuntarily deny boarding to several passengers, which requires cold hard cash per the US DOT guidelines.

Said passenger refused to de-board the aircraft when directed by United personnel and later Chicago Airport police and was forcibly removed. As someone who works in the industry and has directly worked for two carriers, the traveling public and media are generally clueless about how airlines operate and actually make money. Airlines are easy targets for the media and consumer groups. That said, UA desperately needs better social media personnel. Telling the traveling public over social media that the contract of carriage allows them to deny boarding to someone who is insubordinate and could be a liability is asking for confrontation.
So what? Personnel management is the airline's problem, not the customer's. Yes, airlines do have to make money, but they happen to be enjoying record profits at this time (much of which is underwritten by many of the rules that make this sort of crap legal -rules and exemptions that would be a scam in any other industry), though I get the feeling that this will cost United dearly and go down as a prime example of what not to do in business school textbooks of the future. This whole incident reflects an appalling lack of planning and judgment on United's part.

Whoever is responsible for their PR is in the wrong business. The CEO's corporate newspeak is indicative of a lot what is wrong with business in this country. Had they actually apologized (and not say "we apologize" -that's not an apology), made amends, and moved on this probably would have blown over a lot more quickly.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:18 PM   #3440
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Re: Logan Flight Additions

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I will give you $800 to stop using this phrase. Whether or not the traveling public is aware of how United operates is entirely irrelevant. Forcing someone who has bought and paid for a ticket off a plane is a shit policy. The fact that you don't understand that speaks to how little you know about how the traveling public (viz. human beings) operates.
Ok, what should the people who occasionally travel on UA or feel the need to engage with their social channels be called? Passengers? General Public? Customers?

People book hotel rooms and then get "walked" and directed to a provider transportation to a nearby property, often times are not charged for their stay and the property they originally booked usually covers at least a single night or sometimes entire stay at the reaccomodation property. This becoming an increasingly common occurrence in our area, particularly during the summer when all properties in a 50-mile radius end up being completely sold out. With hoteliers as a customer you are subject to state, county and in some cases city ordinances. They aren't required to disclose their "walk rates", aren't required to give a specific compensation in the form of cold hard cash like the airlines are on the spot.

All businesses and industries have operational challenges. People buy tickets at Fenway and sometimes the game is rained out, and then they aren't able to attend the rescheduled game. What about power outages from NStar (Eversource)? There's tons of other other examples in consumer facing industries.

It's not right they were unable to transport this gentleman but there is a procedure in place and when he purchased his ticket he had the opportunity to review the CofC and neglected to do so.
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