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Design a Better Boston Are you disappointed with the state of Boston's current architecture/development? Think you have a better idea? Post it here.

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Old 12-18-2013, 10:48 PM   #21
BostonUrbEx
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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I think Cleveland Circle has an issue, and the Heath St. loop. (As well as a desire on the part of the T to not run overly long trains in the street-running section) B and D don't have issues though, as far as I know.
Correct.

However, the T has in the best ran a three-car Brigham Short turn as a part of regularly scheduled peak service.

The other problem is power-supply. If we see any three-car trains on the GLX, they'll likely be Brattle Loop short-turns. The T is afraid of overloading the poor electrical supply in the central subway, where too many three-car trains could overload the whole thing.
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forget it ever happening, its too great an idea.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:05 AM   #22
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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Correct.

However, the T has in the best ran a three-car Brigham Short turn as a part of regularly scheduled peak service.

The other problem is power-supply. If we see any three-car trains on the GLX, they'll likely be Brattle Loop short-turns. The T is afraid of overloading the poor electrical supply in the central subway, where too many three-car trains could overload the whole thing.
North end power already got a boost with the North Station superstation relocation. There's a large substation in the Garden basement feeding North Station yard, and that relocation project was built after GLX went on the books so the power needs past GC are already predicated on full-build GLX loads. Throw in the new carhouse and they'll have ample draw to throw whatever they want out there. Triplets west of GC are already common enough that we know those are feasible with no pussy-footing during peakmost service, so further upgrades are only needed if they fall short of the draw required for handling 4-car trains off the D (north end + GLX are ready for that out-of-the-box). Since quadruplets could go into service as soon as they drain the option orders on the Type 9's, they probably don't have a very long laundry list of places to shore up. It's not an ancient power supply by any means. GLX has been a Transit Commitment for so long now they knew what their power draw needs were going to be for that project before they'd even finished the years of spot upgrades everywhere else for the Type 8 rollout.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #23
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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North end power already got a boost with the North Station superstation relocation. There's a large substation in the Garden basement feeding North Station yard, and that relocation project was built after GLX went on the books so the power needs past GC are already predicated on full-build GLX loads. Throw in the new carhouse and they'll have ample draw to throw whatever they want out there. Triplets west of GC are already common enough that we know those are feasible with no pussy-footing during peakmost service, so further upgrades are only needed if they fall short of the draw required for handling 4-car trains off the D (north end + GLX are ready for that out-of-the-box). Since quadruplets could go into service as soon as they drain the option orders on the Type 9's, they probably don't have a very long laundry list of places to shore up. It's not an ancient power supply by any means. GLX has been a Transit Commitment for so long now they knew what their power draw needs were going to be for that project before they'd even finished the years of spot upgrades everywhere else for the Type 8 rollout.
Assuming the southern end of the central subway gets a power boost, could the new yard be significant enough to store enough cars for three-car trains everywhere (except where prohibited by platform lengths), plus occasional four-car trains? Or would the Arborway yard need to be restored as well?
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:50 PM   #24
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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Assuming the southern end of the central subway gets a power boost, could the new yard be significant enough to store enough cars for three-car trains everywhere (except where prohibited by platform lengths), plus occasional four-car trains? Or would the Arborway yard need to be restored as well?
Isn't the new yard going to be Riverside sized?
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:38 PM   #25
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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Assuming the southern end of the central subway gets a power boost, could the new yard be significant enough to store enough cars for three-car trains everywhere (except where prohibited by platform lengths), plus occasional four-car trains? Or would the Arborway yard need to be restored as well?
It's a huge yard. I don't think it's equal capacity to Riverside, but a close #2. It'll open up a lot of slack space at Reservoir and Riverside to have a new home base at the opposite end of the system, so every yard will have room for fleet increases when storage gets redistributed.


The Type 9 order is for 24 cars on the base contract, enough to supply GLX, replacements for wreck casualties past and future, and to free up a few Type 7's for work car conversion to retire the 3 near-death Boeing work cars. The option orders are for +30 more. Do the math on what immediate need doubling the order could possibly serve, since a full fleet of 8's and rebuilt 7's is plenty adequate for mass 3-car trains.

They're doin' 4-car trains on the D + GLX if they exercise all the options. The intent is pretty clear.
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:23 PM   #26
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

Power supply is a problem for running more three-car trains. That is one reason why the present ones that are scheduled on the B and the D are only scheduled for a hand full of trains and are scheduled about every 3rd or 4th train during the peak when they are operated. They do not want too many three-car trains in one power section. They will need to do a full power study and determine what substations need to be upgraded to run a large number of three-car trains..

There are no plans to run four-car trains any time soon. Boylston St. will not hold a four car train with all doors on the platform and Arlington, post-ADA platform work, can no longer hold a four-car train with all doors on the platform. When they ran the one planned four-car train after a Red Sox game a couple of years ago, it ran express from Kenmore to Park St. They have not tried operating any planned four-car trains after a game since.

The 24 car proposed base Type 9 order is just intended just to provide the cars for the full GLX extension. The 30-car option order would be to operate more three-car trains, however, per "the way forward" transportation plan, the MBTA is now looking at a large car order in the 2020-2025 time frame to replace portions of the Type 7 and Type 8 fleets. They will not exercise the 30-car option (assuming they actually place the base order, it has yet to go to the MassDOT Board) if they are going to move forward with the large order.

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Old 12-19-2013, 03:41 PM   #27
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

Honestly, I haven't seen a 3-car train on the B in ages. Maybe I'm just not out there at the right time.
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:52 PM   #28
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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Honestly, I haven't seen a 3-car train on the B in ages. Maybe I'm just not out there at the right time.
If they are short of crews or equipment, they don't run them.
In the morning they are supposed to leave BC at 6:40, 7:13, 7:37, 8:00, 8:35, 8:58, 9:22, and 9:45. In the evening, they are supposed to leave Government Center at 5:16, 5:41, 6:07, 6:31, 7:06, and 7:29.
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Old 12-19-2013, 03:53 PM   #29
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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Honestly, I haven't seen a 3-car train on the B in ages. Maybe I'm just not out there at the right time.
Fleet numbers are more depleted than usual because of the Type 7 rebuild program. There's 4 regular-service cars out at the Hormel, NY factory plus most of the long-term wrecks and heavy-repair holds. And any 3600 series cars that are out-of-service for more than minor repairs are being allowed to pile up on the Riverside dead line to move up to the front of the line for the next batch off to the factory. At least 4 more, possibly as many as 7 sidelined cars that may not return to service at all before being whisked off to New York. There'll end up being further attrition through winter and spring. And then after the pilot cars from the program return to service the rotations of in-service cars into the program will accelerate dramatically. It won't pinch baseline service, but triplets will have to be rare for the next year-plus to keep the factory well-fed.

The flood of returnees will allow the supply to rebound in 2015 and put triplets back out in greater numbers than ever. If they want a flush car fleet with the fewest sidelined for minor aches and pains at any given moment they've got to take the temporary hit and get through these years-overdue rebuilds pronto. Service will be that much better off for it in the end.


There's also 8 Bredas currently out-of-service awaiting parts. Short-term deal, but that's a higher than average tally that probably won't be fully rectified for a few months. Parts orders are frequently a lot less-than-instantaneous deliveries, so there's periodic bottlenecks like this in the repair queue where they have to sit and wait for stuff to arrive.

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Old 12-19-2013, 08:01 PM   #30
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

My understanding from a friend who is a Green Line operator, is that the present paucity of the officially scheduled three car trains is usually do to a lack of crews vs. a lack of cars. He says they have had a lot of retirements and they have not been able to keep up with new hires.

Those eight out of service Type 8s are all cars that have been out of service at least a year, and some of them have been out of service 2-3 years. The oldest Type 8s are 15 years old, but already the cars have some components that have become obsolete and are difficult to obtain replacement parts for. With more capital money now available, they have started to procure components to overhaul Type 8 trucks and upgrade other sub-systems. But it will probably be awhile before they have enough parts in stock to get all eight of those cars back on the road. Once they are back, they are somewhat spoken for. The MassDOT transit commitments update report
http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/Porta...0-%20final.pdf
includes this statement in the section about equipment for GLX:
"The MBTA is also proceeding with the plan to rehabilitate eight currently out-of-service cars to support the Phase 2/2A opening of the extension to Washington Street and Union Square."

If they stay on schedule to open GLX Phase 2/2A by 2017, it is looking more and more like that will be before the 24 Type 9s have arrived (since they haven't even been ordered yet), so they will have to push to get every available Type 7 and Type 8 on the road to meet the expanded car requirement. Don't look for there to be any increase in three-car trains anytime soon.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:38 PM   #31
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Re: Redesigned MBTA

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My understanding from a friend who is a Green Line operator, is that the present paucity of the officially scheduled three car trains is usually do to a lack of crews vs. a lack of cars. He says they have had a lot of retirements and they have not been able to keep up with new hires.
You know how you solve this? OPTO!

Like MUNI managed.
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