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Old 03-31-2017, 06:53 AM   #721
JeffDowntown
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
There was a tangent about how this will scare all of the region's real estate agents away from making deals which seems a bit overblown since moving T stations has in fact happened before (in Boston) and we managed to stave off cannibalism in the years that followed
I am not sure what you mean by "stave off cannibalism", but the move of the Orange Line alignment from the core of Roxbury to the Roxbury/JP line (NEC Corridor) was hugely disruptive to Roxbury, and has certainly not been forgiven in that community.

And it has taken 30 years for residential TOD to finally start happening along the realigned Orange Line -- I have to wonder how much of that time was due to developer uncertainty about the controversial realignment.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:25 AM   #722
FK4
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Jeff it ain't worth it man. The guy has to have the last word and will play as far and loose with the facts as necessary in order to justify his pet project. For him, it's personal, and there's no making rational arguments with someone taking the subject personally.

Last edited by FK4; 03-31-2017 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 03-31-2017, 03:31 PM   #723
Rover
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

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Jeff it ain't worth it man. The guy has to have the last word and will play as far and loose with the facts as necessary in order to justify his pet project. For him, it's personal, and there's no making rational arguments with someone taking the subject personally.
Not at all. I'm asking doubters to take a fresh look at things, complete with new #'s when they come. Unfortunately people who were rightly opposed to the old proposal seem hell bent on opposing anything for any reason. This is detrimental to the public good. However, if you'd like exchange insults instead I'd be more than happy to do so. Either way works for me.
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Old 03-31-2017, 03:48 PM   #724
fattony
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

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fattony you have a pretty simplistic view of things. Sure, why can't every city outside of Boston just start creating jobs locally? Gee, why didn't anybody think of that before? Also, as I mentioned earlier, anybody still quoting the 2.3Bn figure is either into strawman arguments, likes long winded posts, or their girlfriend banged someone from the south coast and this is revenge. I'll leave it to you to tell us which one it is that applies to you.
I don't at all have a simplistic view of things. I'd argue the contrary. SCR is clearly well intentioned, but come on pull your head out of the sand. This thing has been doomed since the minute they published ridership projections. A shiny new choo-choo to the big city is, at best, a half-baked solution to complicated problems facing the South Coast and a host of other cities across Mass and the US.

You think its cute to post internet eyerolls and ad hominems, but I think you need to reexamine the very weak position you are taking. The SCR boondoggle deserves an eyeroll and taxpayers ought to be asked to invest in viable, sustainable economic development. I know it hard problem and I don't have the answers. But it clearly is a problem that can't be bandaided by a fucking choo-choo train.
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Old 04-05-2017, 10:22 AM   #725
GP40MC
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I would argue that framing the SCR project as just for New Bedford and Fall River has always been wrong. This is also about the towns and Taunton along that corridor - even if Raynham, Easton and Stoughton won't admit it. Ridership from Taunton north is where the biggest counts would be initially.

SCR has been delayed, delayed and made more expensive as years marched on. A good tactic that ramped up the cost of Greenbush (though apparently not enough). F-Line has summed up my feelings about this project in regards to the Army Corp study and its conclusions.

And now we have the damn Middleboro reroute back on the table. One big sigh and shrug of resignation. The SCR haters are on the cusp of victory I'm afraid. One can only hope when it comes time to expand RT24 to four lanes, they are there to demand it be elevated where it crosses the Hock!
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:44 PM   #726
millerm277
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

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Originally Posted by GP40MC View Post
I would argue that framing the SCR project as just for New Bedford and Fall River has always been wrong. This is also about the towns and Taunton along that corridor - even if Raynham, Easton and Stoughton won't admit it. Ridership from Taunton north is where the biggest counts would be initially.
Stoughton already has CR service and Easton residents can go in any direction other than South and be at a CR station in <15 minutes. SCR certainly won't be a bad thing for them, but it's not particularly gamechanging for them.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:11 PM   #727
Arlington
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

20-minute clockface service to Middleboro/Wareham and Attleboro/Providence, with good park and rides has always struck me as a serious contender for the best park and ride solution (particularly since it directs cars into an east-west rush hour perpendicular to the current north-south one)
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Old 04-08-2017, 11:53 AM   #728
Joel N. Weber II
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Re: Taunton to Boston commute

I'm wondering if Taunton would be best served by bus service to Mansfield.

Google Maps tells me going from Taunton (whatever point in the city it picks) to Mansfield MBTA is 28 minutes in typical traffic via Bay St and I-495. Mansfield is then roughly 30-45 minutes to South Station, and Mansfield probably will get more frequent service than any Taunton station ever would.

Less than $10 million could probably easily buy enough battery powered buses from a manufacturer like Proterra to cover the route with 15 minute headways. $5 million might even be enough if the buses won't get stuck in traffic and the bids are aggressive enough.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:37 AM   #729
Rover
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Re: Taunton to Boston commute

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Originally Posted by Joel N. Weber II View Post
I'm wondering if Taunton would be best served by bus service to Mansfield.

Google Maps tells me going from Taunton (whatever point in the city it picks) to Mansfield MBTA is 28 minutes in typical traffic via Bay St and I-495. Mansfield is then roughly 30-45 minutes to South Station, and Mansfield probably will get more frequent service than any Taunton station ever would.

Less than $10 million could probably easily buy enough battery powered buses from a manufacturer like Proterra to cover the route with 15 minute headways. $5 million might even be enough if the buses won't get stuck in traffic and the bids are aggressive enough.
I don't think this works. Lets say the Taunton commute times are accurate door to door (and I'm somewhat skeptical). You'd have to build in the 15 minutes you mention for traffic, getting off bus and on to train, etc. That's about 45 minutes on top of a 45 minute commuter rail ride. For that kind of time people will just drive themselves in. Not to mention this does nothing for people who are south of Taunton.

Run the rail to Taunton and your park and ride idea works. Its a straight shot up 24 and 140 which meet up in Taunton near where the train station should be located.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlington View Post
20-minute clockface service to Middleboro/Wareham and Attleboro/Providence, with good park and rides has always struck me as a serious contender for the best park and ride solution (particularly since it directs cars into an east-west rush hour perpendicular to the current north-south one)
Not workable because there are no good east west connections. You either go on 195 which runs from roughly the Cape bridges to Providence, or you go on 495. Either way you're getting caught in brutal traffic (Providence) or you're going north then, south east or southwest to get to a train station. Oddly enough the rail track from Middleborough to Taunton cuts through the woods and is a more direct connection.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:51 PM   #730
34f34f
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Unfortunately this was posted April 2, not April 1: "THE STATE’S TOP ENVIRONMENTAL OFFICIAL on Monday gave the green light to a project that would phase in rail service from Boston to New Bedford and Fall River, with the first phase launching in 2022."

Quote:
Baker administration officials say 85 percent of the estimated $935 million cost of the first phase would go for track work connecting Taunton to Fall River and New Bedford. That work is also needed for the second phase, which is expected to be completed in 2028. Together, the two phases are expected to cost $3.3 billion.
Beaton characterized the ridership projections developed by the Baker administration – 1,600 daily riders in 2030 and 3,900 in 2040 — as somewhat uncertain. He noted the Baker administration did not estimate a cost per rider. He said the new rail service would reduce bus ridership between the South Coast and Boston from 2,200 to 1,400 by 2030.
Holy cost-per-rider!
Phase 1: $935 mil for 1600 riders = $584,000 per rider
Phase 1+2: $3.3 bil for 3900 riders = $846,000 per rider
BUT this will actually reduce bus users by 800, so the net new riders is only 3100
Phase 1+2 minus mode shifters: $3.3 bil for 3100 = $1,064,500 per new rider

Did I do this right?
EDIT: no, I didn't--the 1600 estimate is for 2030, which is after Phase 2, not Phase 1. So there will be even fewer new riders for Phase 1, making the cost per rider even higher than I stated above.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:26 PM   #731
HenryAlan
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Will there be any new riders for Phase 1? What trains are running between Taunton and Fall River/New Bedford? Until Phase 2, the answer to that will be none.

[edit]

Okay, read the article, now I understand better. Phase 1 is a rail connection from Boston via Taunton, but using an extension from Midleborough, whereas Phase 2 changes the connection to one made via Stoughton (and is electrified!).

Last edited by HenryAlan; 04-03-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:30 PM   #732
Rover
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34f34f View Post
Unfortunately this was posted April 2, not April 1: "THE STATE’S TOP ENVIRONMENTAL OFFICIAL on Monday gave the green light to a project that would phase in rail service from Boston to New Bedford and Fall River, with the first phase launching in 2022."



Holy cost-per-rider!
Phase 1: $935 mil for 1600 riders = $584,000 per rider
Phase 1+2: $3.3 bil for 3900 riders = $846,000 per rider
BUT this will actually reduce bus users by 800, so the net new riders is only 3100
Phase 1+2 minus mode shifters: $3.3 bil for 3100 = $1,064,500 per new rider

Did I do this right?
EDIT: no, I didn't--the 1600 estimate is for 2030, which is after Phase 2, not Phase 1. So there will be even fewer new riders for Phase 1, making the cost per rider even higher than I stated above.
My thoughts:

Correct me if I'm wrong in your calculations, but you seem to be equating the one time cost of the extension (phase I for example) with the ridership in one year's time (1600 in 2030). Isn't that an apples and oranges comparison? As in you'd have to put the on time cost up against the lifetime ridership of the transit line, say it runs for 30 years before it needs significant work.

Now mind you I'm not saying don't balk at the price tag, but I see this a lot especially in terms of business tax breaks equated to jobs created, which never take into account the jobs created last more than one year.

EDIT: Having grown up in the area and driving down there occasionally, I think the priority should be extending service to the Cotley Junction in Taunton near the mall and the junction of 24 and 140. That's a pretty easy drive up from the North End of Fall River and will give those people a decent commuter option. Same thing with the New Bedford with the drive up 140.
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:34 PM   #733
Schorschico
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Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

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...say it runs for 30 years before it needs significant work.
You are right, but the numbers get (to me) even more depressing if you put a massive number like 100 years. Even then it makes no sense. With 1,000 years it enters the ballpark of reasonable (!). $3 Billion!.
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