Behind the scenes at Mass DOT

[Lrfox]

*edit*

I posted these without first asking if I could post them here which I should have done. I've temporarily taken them down until I'm sure it's OK for them to be posted.

[BeeLine]

Fantastic stuff. Really great info and photos. Thanks much for sharing.

[Commuting Boston Student]

[Toucano]

Awesome. Thanks for sharing!

[datadyne007]

My camera died during my visit to the T OCC. Thanks so much for the killer photos!

If only the T knew where their GL trains were... They'd need a whole extra wraparound on the other side!

[Kahta]

Very neat

[Matthew]

Thanks. I just passed that exhaust vent today while around town, funny. I've seen the T control center but not the rest. Do you have a better shot of the Green Line display (on the far left) btw, I was hunting for one earlier but couldn't find it. They do have one, but it only shows the state of the central subway and which vehicles have departed on which branch.

[Lrfox]

Originally Posted by datadyne007

My camera died during my visit to the T OCC. Thanks so much for the killer photos! If only the T knew where their GL trains were... They'd need a whole extra wraparound on the other side!

Thanks! The T OCC was great. I actually wanted to get some more shots because there's a conference room about 1 level up overlooking the whole floor/screens that would have looked great if i had gotten it in a photo.

Yeah, the GL only shows the Central Subway in detail. Although you could probably show all of the BU area stops on the B-Line in "actual distance" on the wall since they're so close together in real life.

Originally Posted by Matthew

Thanks. I just passed that exhaust vent today while around town, funny. I've seen the T control center but not the rest. Do you have a better shot of the Green Line display (on the far left) btw, I was hunting for one earlier but couldn't find it. They do have one, but it only shows the state of the central subway and which vehicles have departed on which branch.

Yeah, but it's a little blurry. It's not nearly as detailed as the R/O/B line displays. Like you said, the top section is the central subway, and the bottom 4 lines are each of the branches. The display shows the trolley numbers too. Here it is:

[ant8904]

While it was cool to get the inside look. I have to ask did you get to talk to them on any inside viewpoints? Like you mentioned Haymarket was to have market vendors. Since the Big Dig technically ended several years ago, why is it being built now? Or questions that keep bothering us so much, like their reasoning for refusal to do cheap upgrades like signal priority to the Green Line? Or any other internal insight rather then the speculation we tend to make every time we hear the weekly/semi-daily story of the dead trains.

[Lrfox]

Originally Posted by ant8904

While it was cool to get the inside look. I have to ask did you get to talk to them on any inside viewpoints? Like you mentioned Haymarket was to have market vendors. Since the Big Dig technically ended several years ago, why is it being built now? Or questions that keep bothering us so much, like their reasoning for refusal to do cheap upgrades like signal priority to the Green Line? Or any other internal insight rather then the speculation we tend to make every time we hear the weekly/semi-daily story of the dead trains.

Yes and no. On one hand, I really wanted to get some answers to burning questions; but on the other hand I didn't want to piss anyone off when they were going out of the way to show us around.

I asked about air rights development at the HOC. I specifically mentioned Fenway Center, but also asked about other parcels and some failed proposals (Columbus Center). The answer I got was basically that they're willing to work with anyone and their only criteria is that the decks be held to the same standards as their tunnels as far as air in-flow, exhaust, lighting, etc. I mentioned that adhering to those regulations is cost prohibitive and the person I spoke with seemed to disagree. He believed that these projects tend to fail for a number of reasons (community opposition, financing problems, etc) but not typically because of Mass DOT regulations. I could have debated, but again, I didn't want to piss off my hosts.

I mentioned Green Line signal priority. It's something that they're working toward as it would be a fairly straightforward project with significant improvement. One of the primary concerns is the hurdles they'd face in terms of opposition. Regardless of how minimal the impact would be to motorists (literally seconds), convincing the general public that possibly tying up traffic even a little is a GOOD thing, is not an easy task. It's one that will probably get drawn out to ridiculous proportions. Furthermore, it requires a lot of cooperation between multiple different agencies. That is no easy task either. Again, something that they support, but not as easy as it should be to implement.

I didn't ask about the Haymarket space. I didn't want to go there. That one was just too glaringly obvious. Again, I didn't want to piss these people off.

As far as other internal insight, I did get the impression that environmental issues are the biggest hurdles for most projects, especially potential extensions. The Green Line ext. and the Blue Line to Lynn (as well as South Coast Rail) are the biggest examples. No one I spoke with was particularly fond of the Army Corps. who apparently bring these processes to a screeching halt. Wetlands are the biggest environmental hurdle and both extensions (Green and Blue) have to deal with them. An existing railbed through wetlands (even if it's in use by other types of rail) does not mean that an extension is clear. Turns out the Army Corps has to spend months (sometimes more than 12) looking into this stuff which is seemingly black and white to most of us. Furthermore, the threat of legal action, even by a single person, can cause major delays. Every proposal has at least one crazy opponent who threatens legal action for something that would be ridiculous to most of us.

As far as broken trains it's as simple as money. They have a finite amount of funds and it gets spread to priority projects which sometimes comes at the cost of other segments of the MBTA. They acknowledged that they need new vehicles on all lines. However, you have a lot of people competing for a limited amount of money. New Blue Line cars a few years back were a huge victory.

Overall, the general tone I got was that these people were just as frustrated with delays and seemingly the lack of progress as we are. Maybe even more so. And this wasn't a one time thing. I don't work for Mass DOT, but these are all people I will be in tough with fairly regularly. As I get more comfortable, I'll ask more pressing questions.

[BostonUrbEx]

Holy. Friggin. Shit.

I'm fucking jumping up and down looking at these photos from inside the Big Dig's hidden infrastructure!!! Okay, well not really... but I am going out of my mind!

I want to drive through and "break down" so I can use the exits now!

[Matthew]

I've met some really great people from MassDOT, and some not really great people. So like anywhere, it varies.

I have to say though, the attitude towards signal priority is just disgusting. More people travel on the "B" line than there are vehicles on Commonwealth Avenue. But since in their minds, drivers are worth more than riders, that doesn't count for squat.

[Nexis4jersey]

Wow , that an orgasmic amount of photos.... Personally I wasn't to impressed with the Big Dig , the Road surface is bumpy in spots , signs are confusing New England Style...and you need to drive like a New Yorker to get on or off...

[datadyne007]

The big thing MassDOT was tooting when I visited the OCC with my Urban Infrastructure class was new OL rolling stock finally being on the horizon.

At that time, they were also excited about signal priority in Brookline.

[massmotorist]

The people that rip on MassDOT are generally just misinformed. These guys are professionals who do an amazing amount with the resources and constraints they have, both MassHighway and the MBTA.

There might be some bad apples at the operational level, as in any organization, but the middle management, engineers, etc. are top notch.

BTW - I doubt there would be significant motorist objections to signal priority for the Green line, and I'd be in a position to say so.

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Cool stuff. Thanks for posting!

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by massmotorist

There might be some bad apples at the operational level, as in any organization, but the middle management, engineers, etc. are top notch.

I'm thinking of some of the managers who promote ... outdated 50s era highway overpasses ... when 99% of the community wants it gone. Or managers who never have actually visited the area they are working on. Everybody I've met is "nice" to the public, but I'm not sure if all of them are competent or have any care.

BTW - I doubt there would be significant motorist objections to signal priority for the Green line, and I'd be in a position to say so.

Can you elaborate? For example, even when Brookline was willing to pay for it, it still didn't happen...

[F-Line to Dudley]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Can you elaborate? For example, even when Brookline was willing to pay for it, it still didn't happen...

T didn't want to sit down with them. Beacon is wired for it the whole route of the C, and just needs the trolley sensors hooked up. They've been slowly turning the vice grip on them to get to the negotiating table, so wouldn't surprise me if there were quietly some talks going on. If this happens then Menino will probably start twisting the screws about the E to Brigham, which is also wired for it (Brigham-Heath isn't unless some funding-delayed streetscaping projects move forward). Hizzoner was miffed at the low interest as well.

Can only do it on the B to BU Bridge, which is hardly worth it. Until MassHighway acts on its indefinitely shelved Comm. Ave. rebuild plans BU Bridge-Packards and Packards-Warren, the signals out there are still dumb/"analog". Nothing the T can do about that...it's MassHighway's bag. Still, 1-1/2 signal prioritized lines makes a hell of a difference for subway schedules for hardly any money and makes coordinating the B a ton easier when C's are arriving at Kenmore and E's at Copley a lot more punctually than they are now.

[massmotorist]

Originally Posted by Matthew

I'm thinking of some of the managers who promote ... outdated 50s era highway overpasses ... when 99% of the community wants it gone. Or managers who never have actually visited the area they are working on. Everybody I've met is "nice" to the public, but I'm not sure if all of them are competent or have any care.

In terms of "50's era", I assume you're referring to the fact that they're building highway overpasses at all, not that they're an outdated type of overpass? Can you give an example? MassDOT seems quite responsive to these things where there is a good policy case to be made - case in point would be removing the Bowker Overpass.

It's silly to be reflexively anti-highway/anti-highway-expansion or anti-transit/anti-transit-expansion. You have to meet the transportation needs of the entire metro area, and that includes a context-sensitive balance of both.

Originally Posted by Matthew

Can you elaborate? For example, even when Brookline was willing to pay for it, it still didn't happen...

I'm just saying it's not motorists or a motorists' group that would be opposing it. It's a lack of funding, complexity, lack of interagency cooperation, bureaucratic inertia, etc.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by massmotorist

In terms of "50's era", I assume you're referring to the fact that they're building highway overpasses at all, not that they're an outdated type of overpass? Can you give an example? MassDOT seems quite responsive to these things where there is a good policy case to be made - case in point would be removing the Bowker Overpass.

Yes, the Bowker Overpass is one of the examples I was thinking about, and also the McCarthy Overpass in Somerville.

It's silly to be reflexively anti-highway/anti-highway-expansion or anti-transit/anti-transit-expansion. You have to meet the transportation needs of the entire metro area, and that includes a context-sensitive balance of both.

Context-sensitive balance is something road planners have historically lacked. The 50s era attitude towards urban highways and overpasses is that they were a way of conducting large scale social engineering, and damn the consequences to the communities in the way.

The road/urban planners can always find an excuse for highway expansion if they continue with those assumptions and that attitude. I have watched people stand up and proclaim -- with a completely straight and serious face -- that we must continually expand the roadway system and increase capacity for the future, or else. There was absolutely zero thought given to the negative effects on the city. It's hard to have "balance" when one side is missing entirely.

I'm just saying it's not motorists or a motorists' group that would be opposing it. It's a lack of funding, complexity, lack of interagency cooperation, bureaucratic inertia, etc.

But what about the Brookline case?