Design a Better Airport

[BostonUrbEx]

http://www.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=217656314107067401485.0004994a2d02589ed23e0&ll=42.322128,-70.961037&spn=0.075264,0.181789&t=h&z=13


Yep.

Alternatively, remove the southern most east-west runway and make an additional NE-SW runway.


As is in the map: I-90 rerouted east of I-93 for metro-west, Boston, and North Shore. New connection for south shore via Moon Island with direct interchange at Neponset. This connection also shares a bridge from Moon Island to the Airport's island with a heavy rail urban ring which runs up Mass Ave via JFK/UMass. The Ted Williams tunnel would be repurposed or abandoned (probably going to fall to shit in a couple decades anyways).

Airport would be scaled down to serve freight during peak air passenger hours and would possibly also have it's AFB status reinstated, which could take over Hanscom's remaining air force operations. The airport property along the inner harbor would be turned into a large container intermodal facility for rail which can move out on the Worcester, Framingham, Lowell, or Newburyport lines. With a reverse move freight could move out on the Haverhill, however, this is useless as the Lowell has better capacity and anything go up the Haverhill line would be capable of going via the Wildcat Branch. Freight could go down any south side line without reversing (except the NEC between Back Bay and Readville (no freight stops anyways) and the Needham (no freight stops I know of)) should the loop at Beacon Yard be reconfigured a bit.

Remaining space up for developement. Height restrictions in East Boston relieved between Brooks St and the Harbor, with major increases in Downtown, Back Bay, South End, and surrounding area. Fort Point will also be capable of hosting some towers on either side.

Winthrop and Eastie residents will literally rejoice with parades, fireworks, and dancing in the streets. All others shall breath a sigh of relief due to rather large water buffers and indirect runway alignment (Hull completely avoids any approaches and Quincy Bay protects Quincy very well).

George's Island was specifically preserved in it's entirety. I'm not sure I've been there (possibly conflicting memories of Castle Island) but it appears to be pretty badass, so it stays for sure.


The End.

[BostonUrbEx]

PS: MassPort will be disolved and all MassPort officials, along with NIMBY's and island preservationists, will be publicly executed in the Common by gallows, guillotines, and firing squads.

[Ron Newman]

I'd guess that this proposal makes a hash out of existing shipping lanes but I don't know that for sure.

[vanshnookenraggen]

I like it. I would reword the interchange with I-93 to destroy less of Port Norfolk and I would extend the Silver Line via the I-90 Spur (I-190 perhaps?).

I know it is only a thought experiment but I wonder what the wind patterns have to say about the runway layouts? Also, I'm sure Qunicy residents would be none too pleased at this.

@Ron: It doesn't look like shipping lanes would be affected too much as the new airport could be designed around them or in a way that improves them (i.e. dredging the lanes to fill in the airport.)

[Ron Newman]

I think running major highways through Squantum in Quincy and Castle Island in Southie is a non-starter. It reminds me a bit of the 'Boston Bypass' proposal that some North Ender presented as an alternative to the Big Dig.

[BostonUrbEx]

I think running major highways through Squantum in Quincy and Castle Island in Southie is a non-starter. It reminds me a bit of the 'Boston Bypass' proposal that some North Ender presented as an alternative to the Big Dig.

I suppose my highways need a bit of an explanation. The entire I-90 shown on the map would be a tunnel. The road from Neponset would be a tunnel until it surfaces on the eastern shore of Squantum and then it's just bridges/surface. The Urban Ring is tunnel all the way until it meets up with the road from Neponset.

[czsz]

You'd create an alternative to Logan and then turn it over to freight and the air force? Think of all that waterfront property going to waste!

Also, closing up the harbor this way would create the perfect opportunity to build the Boston Flood Barrier, maybe with a through traffic bypass for I-93 built on top via Winthrop, Airport Island, and Hull, allowing the Big Dig tunnels to be abandoned for all kinds of good purposes.

[ss_resident]

You'll need to add a NW/SE runway, preferably 2 of them, for winter days when the wind is strong out of the northwest, especially after nor'easters. Also, if you can figure out a way to have the runways not intersect each other, that would be great. Pilots hate intersecting runway ops, although the controllers at Logan are very good when they need to have ops on intersecting runways.
Also, you might want to have 93 N start it's route to the airport a little further to the south--no way will Norfolk Point residents let their neighborhood be cut in half by a highway, but then you'll have to go under the very popular Pope John Paul park, the Neponset car and train bridges, and through a lot of tidal wetlands.

[BostonUrbEx]

I completely realigned the runways so there are 2 NW/SE, 2 NE/SW, 2 E/W. I previously was trying to avoid runway crisscrossing and tried to limit it. This time, I was more successful, with the most being 2 crossings for just one of the runways. Also, the terminals would all now be right in the middle, in a ring around the ramps/parking, etc in the middle. This means better, more equal access too all runways. There could also be a ferry terminal in the middle of the southern sea wall.

[bosma]

I always wondered why the parking garages were never put underground given land constraints at logan.

How about an express shuttle bus to TF Green

[NJBostonFan]

Why don't we build a new airport off of Deer Island, like I suggested many times ago. I remember reading Boston Visions competition and there was a proposal named Boston's Safety Belt, that called for using existing islands and new artificial islands to serve as a barrier to protect the harbor and shoreline from rising waters or a hurricane. A highway was proposed to run along its path, connecting the mainland and serving as an inner belt. Perhaps this idea could be resurrected and modified to include a new airport in the location i mentioned, with a connection to the new the highway and a connection to existing subway lines and downtown boston. Of course this is all fantasy.

[NJBostonFan]

You'd create an alternative to Logan and then turn it over to freight and the air force? Think of all that waterfront property going to waste!

Also, closing up the harbor this way would create the perfect opportunity to build the Boston Flood Barrier, maybe with a through traffic bypass for I-93 built on top via Winthrop, Airport Island, and Hull, allowing the Big Dig tunnels to be abandoned for all kinds of good purposes.

I thought the same thing too!

[LordStanleyCup2011]

how would this work though?

You cant just build an airport in the middle of Boston Harbor

[whighlander]

Alternatively, remove the southern most east-west runway and make an additional NE-SW runway....

As is in the map: I-90 rerouted east of I-93 for metro-west, Boston, and North Shore. New connection for south shore via Moon Island with direct interchange at Neponset. This connection also shares a bridge from Moon Island to the Airport's island with a heavy rail urban ring which runs up Mass Ave via JFK/UMass. The Ted Williams tunnel would be repurposed or abandoned (probably going to fall to shit in a couple decades anyways)....

Airport would be scaled down to serve freight during peak air passenger hours and would possibly also have it's AFB status reinstated, which could take over Hanscom's remaining air force operations. The airport property along the inner harbor would be turned into a large container intermodal facility for rail which can move out on the Worcester, Framingham, Lowell, or Newburyport lines....

Remaining space up for developement. Height restrictions in East Boston relieved between Brooks St and the Harbor, with major increases in Downtown, Back Bay, South End, and surrounding area. Fort Point will also be capable of hosting some towers on either side.

George's Island was specifically preserved in it's entirety. I'm not sure I've been there (possibly conflicting memories of Castle Island) but it appears to be pretty badass, so it stays for sure.....


The End.

Can we just rename this thread -- "What would happen if the inmates were given the keys to the Asylum?"

Let's put it this way -- there's a greater probability of the MFA erecting a devotional temple to Juno for the renaissance of the Greco-Roman Deities

[BostonUrbEx]

how would this work though?

You cant just build an airport in the middle of Boston Harbor

China did it. Or Japan. Ahh, whatever, I'll just refer to them as Asia. Asia did it. So can we.

[AmericanFolkLegend]

China did it. Or Japan. Ahh, whatever, I'll just refer to them as Asia. Asia did it. So can we.

Japan did it. I think it was Osaka's airport. I remember reading an article on that airport in ENR. The airport has sunk something like 30 feet since it was built. They've needed to keep retrofitting it and re-engineering it. There was a sidebar in the article comparing megaprojects and Osaka's was the most expensive on the list (cost something like 50% more than the Big Dig even though it was built 10 years earlier).
So yes, we can. But no, we probably shouldn't.

[HenryAlan]

I think Hong Kong did this, too. But as to Lord Stanley's question, why not? The current airport is a man made peninsula jutting out into the harbor. How is that different from a man made island further out in the harbor?

[omaja]

Wouldn't it just be easier to reserve Hanscom for development as a supplement to Logan in the very long term future? Boston could be a two-airport city a la Dulles/Reagan in DC, Heathrow/Gatwick in London, CDG/Orly in Paris, etc.

Granted, Logan has a ways to go before it reaches maximum capacity. What with American and US Airways starting a merger dance, there's basically an entire half of Terminal B that could well be available in the near term. Couple that with ATC improvements and additional terminal expansion possibilities, Logan has room to grow.

[BussesAin'tTrains]

Have Hanscom be our LaGuardia? Oh how Lincoln and Concord would scream...

[underground]

Expanding TF Green or Manchester and running some sort of transportation between them would be a simpler solution than expanding Hanscom (not to mention building an entirely new airport in the middle of the harbor). The distances between either are closer (~1 hr) than between Heathrow/Gatwick (~2hrs), so it's not an entirely unworkable solution.

[whighlander]

Expanding TF Green or Manchester and running some sort of transportation between them would be a simpler solution than expanding Hanscom (not to mention building an entirely new airport in the middle of the harbor). The distances between either are closer (~1 hr) than between Heathrow/Gatwick (~2hrs), so it's not an entirely unworkable solution.

Uground -- the Greater Boston Region which encompasses Eastern MA, RI and southern NH has its 3 airports and they are ideally situated -- car-less connectivity between them could be improved though it is already not bad:
1) TF Green to/from Logan -- will soon be under 2 hours via CR to Green & SilverLine to Logan
2) Manchester to/from Logan -- less than 2 hours (ideally) via the shuttle to/from Anderson in Woburn and then the Logan Express Bus -- somewhat longer taking CR from Anderson and then Orange to Blue to Airport Station and shuttle to terminal

If there is a need for another airport its in Northeast corner of the region -- right where Pease is located -- non-car access could be accommodated by providing a Porthsmouth stop on the Downeaster / Haverhill CR

Logan should be the hub airport for international flights, long haul domestic and high value air freight with a smattering of the shorter flights to accommodate the people living / working close in

Hanscom and Worcester should be high value general aviation with some limited air freight and some very limited commuter flights to near by destinations

[underground]

Why are you addressing that to me? I said what you said, except the times are shorter than you're estimating (take a look at gmaps).

[whighlander]

Why are you addressing that to me? I said what you said, except the times are shorter than you're estimating (take a look at gmaps).

Uground -- you are right it should have gone up the chain to the person to whom your reply was directed

But as to the estimated times -- to get a realistic estimate as to "how close you can cut it" in changing flights at different airports -- you've got to include the worst-case cycle waiting time -- not the expected value

Thus if the schedule says that you will arrive at 10:15 and the next departure is 10:30 followed by the one at 11:00 -- you would expect a 15 minute wait for the next departure -- but for planning purposes you had better assume you will miss 10:30 and hence the next segment will begin at 11:00

The more segments are involved the greater the probability of missing at least one optimum connection -- that's why I used the conservative numbers in my estimates -- of course everything might click and you'd then have time for a beer and a newspaper

[tocoto]

The biggest problem with the 3 airport system around Boston is that Logan runways are a bit too short. The easiest solution would be to increase 33L and 4R to >11,000 feet. Use existing land or else build a causeway.

[Digital_Islandboy]

The biggest problem with the 3 airport system around Boston is that Logan runways are a bit too short. The easiest solution would be to increase 33L and 4R to >11,000 feet. Use existing land or else build a causeway.

Thought: Would the long time shellfish harvesting community that work along the mud flats approve?


This link will give you some idea of what the other 'beasts' in the business are working with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_runways

If Boston were going to do this, I'd suggest a land reclamation now out to say another mile (5000 feet) to allow for feature expansion and move some of the buried shellfish, clams, shrimp etc. out to the new shoreline so they can begin to populate. It could give shellfish stocks about 5 solid years or so to begin to get used to that new habitat.

[choo]

With new, efficient planes able to economically connect Boston to Asia, the Middle East and any other city doing significant business with Boston in the world, is this really worth it?
We already have 747s that fly to Europe, hopefully we can accommodate A380s doing the same.

The real question is, what is the marginal opportunity opened up by this giant investment? Would it just be more seats to the same destinations? or Would you really all of the sudden see 747s and A380s flying to Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, Dubai, Moscow, Rio, Sao Paolo, and Cape Town? Could Boston really support and attract all that additional capacity and destinations with direct point to point service?

[omaja]

^ The short answer: no. The Boston market will have to grow significantly to see non-stop service to all of those destinations with the exceptions of Seoul and Dubai, with or without the 787.

[BostonUrbEx]

The future is VTOL. We must build a launching pad.

[whighlander]

Thought: Would the long time shellfish harvesting community that work along the mud flats approve?


This link will give you some idea of what the other 'beasts' in the business are working with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_runways

If Boston were going to do this, I'd suggest a land reclamation now out to say another mile (5000 feet) to allow for feature expansion and move some of the buried shellfish, clams, shrimp etc. out to the new shoreline so they can begin to populate. It could give shellfish stocks about 5 solid years or so to begin to get used to that new habitat.

DigIs -- i think two 11,000 foot runways (1 operating at a time depending on winds) (4R/22L, 15R/33L) is sufficient to handle the rare biggest heavies taking off -- this could be done in the same way as one of the the safety extension is being done by building piers -- which just might improve the shelfish environment?

from the Globe story
http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-22/news/29915532_1_runway-safety-longest-runway-eelgrass
The undertaking, paid for mostly by federal grants and scheduled to be completed in 2013, will extend the existing runway [33L] safety area 400 feet on a hulking pier upheld by more than 300 concrete pylons that are being bored into the seabed.