archBOSTON ARCHIVE

[BOSDevelopment]

Yeah - Roxbury is mostly black people (71%) based on the 2000 census. Now whether or not they all steal stuff is another discussion all together.

What I was referring to was section 8 people, irregardless of race. There was no satire in the last post.

Cities all have crappy neighborhoods, let's move on people.

[Ron Newman]

The only difference between "section 8 persons" and the rest of us is that they happen to work in lower-paying jobs and therefore require subsidy in order to be able to afford to remain in this area. Let's lose the elitsm, folks.

[BOSDevelopment]

No Ron, the only difference between "section 8 persons" and the rest of us is that they happen to not have jobs and therefore have the state pay for their rent, food, cigarettes, booze and cable tv. Let's lose the ignorance Ron.

[budman3]

I dont really understand any of this stereotyping that is going on from this whole "white boy from the suburbs" to "poor black people robbing eachother" label pair being used to prove a point. You come of as ignorant and racist when you use that stereotype and that isn't direct variation to what was drilled into you subliminally or blatantly in your suburban life time.

I'm from Stoughton, the suburb to end all suburbs of Boston, dull with a small active downtown to million dollar neighborhoods, foresty farm-like houses on its outskirts, and a few apartment complex's with a commuter rail station. About 14 Dunkin Donuts' (literally, be it in gas stations or individual franchises there everywhere) and everything a town filled with commuters and homebodies needs. The only people who still stereotype like that in places like Stoughton arent contributing members to society and aren't the present time or the future. Nowadays throughout Massachusetts you dont live the life you described if you are an average suburban resident, you acquired that either in your circle or through your individual ignorance because that just isnt how things are viewed anymore, if any of this makes sense.

Using race to prove your point doesnt take you anywhere. Using yourself as an example fromk the "white" side of things doesnt prove anything, because I know and grew up with black, white, asian, and latino's who know some streets you dont walk down and who have lived in the rich neighborhoods etc. In todays world and in the world I grew up in the minorities arent found only in some places and those places cant be labeled slums. It just pisses me off when someone says this stuff.

I am caucasio, Irish Catholic, I am from the suburbs, I did spend much of my upbringing in Boston (took the Red Line from Braintree in town to meet up with freinds most of my summers), and I consider myself knowledgeable and from a relatively privelaged upbringing (I lived in my own house, had about 1/3-1/2 acre of land, own garage, own swimming pool, great neighborhood, good public school system). Growing up, Roxbury was kind of a mixed bag. One of my neighbors across the street actually had a daughter who owned a townhouse in Roxbury and was one of the classiest ladies with the nicest family I have ever met. I knew there were the bad parts but for some reason I missed the whole theory of it being dominated by one race, and I actually thought I had to worry about my own. I was told to watch myself but Roxbury wasnt the place so much that people said there were issues, even though I knew they existed. Charlestown seemed more of a threat in reality. Maybe it was just me.

I would live in Roxbury in a minute if I could afford it. But like much of the area its still out of most peoples reach. I think we have a pretty good dilemna if we are petty enough to be fighting over whether or not place that people vie to live in has the best reputation it can.

[Ron Newman]

Also, the whole Roxbury == black thing is very outdated. I know one white participant in this forum who is proud to live in Roxbury (we heard from him earlier in this thread), and another more occasional contributor who is about to move there.

[PerfectHandle]

I disagree with the characterization of people who live in Section 8 housing. I know a lot of good people who live in Section 8 housing. Most of them have jobs. Most of those who have jobs actually have two jobs and probably work 80 hours a week. The only difference between their lives and the lives of the I-bankers and lawyers in Back Bay/Beacon Hill is that they make $8.00/hour doing things like driving buses and cleaning people's offices and, as a result, have to live in dumpy, run-down Section 8 apartments whose landlords, be they the state, city or private companies, have no incentive to keep them up at all.

To say things like all Section 8 tenants have no jobs and are sitting around while their booze, cigarettes and TV are subsidized reveals remarkable ignorance and ill-will towards people, not just those in Section 8 housing, but towards people in general. Most people just want to be able to support themselves and do right by their families, friends, neighborhoods, cities etc...

BOSDevelopment, I'm sorry that you have such a dim view of humanity. Maybe you should try going out and spending time with people. Getting away from the computer screen can be a good thing.

[BOSDevelopment]

Ok PerfectHandle, you must know what you're talking about...

First of all, if someone was making $8.00 and hour and worked 80 hours a week, they wouldn't be subsidized. If this is truly the case and someone is working this much (making 640 dollars a week) call the housing authority and have their vouchers revoked. You know what? Email me, and I'll call the housing authority on them.



Second of all, the reason I know so much about these low lifes is because I serve them on a daily basis. WHen they clog their toilets, I have to be there to unclog them. WHen they rip off the tops of 2000 dollar wash mashines for 80 dollars in quarters, I have to be there, to catch them on my web cam and evict them. When the smell from their apartment is so aweful, that other tenants begin to move, I have to call the board of health. When I see them selling drugs when I pull into the property, I have to call the police. When I knock on their door to receive their past due rent portion, I get taken to court for "criminal assault, tresspassing and battery". When decent people move in, I have to lie to them and tell them that the complex isn't that bad and that these people aren't out of control, even though they're in the parking lot working on their cars, blaring music and drinking beers. When I have to go aroudn the property twice a day to pick up trash from dunkin donuts and market basket and I look through the trash bags, it's always a section 8 tenant.

When I got to work this morning, I was verbally assaulted by one sectino 8 tenant because her dishwasher "doesn't work you asshole". Even after I explained to her in her drunken high haze the other day that you have to pull the light switch on the tile wall behind it to make it work. On top of everything, these people expect you to serve them like they're queens!

You don't know anything about this system and who is on it. You are a classic liberal that doesn't know anything about who "poor people" really are but you criticize me, someone who has catered to their every need for the past 4 years.

[dudeursistershot]

BOSDevelopment does have a point about people like this. I wasn't sure if he was somehow being sarcastic, but now that I know he's not I don't doubt what he said was true.

Too many liberals (me included) just live in the suburbs in their nice, safe neighborhoods, and have never actually met a person on welfare or section 8 before. But at least I dont delude myself into thinking they're all nice, happy, hard-working people.

About my comments before, I certainly don't believe what I said, I'm just saying that's how we are brought up. It's not a deliberate "those people are poor black criminals" type of thing, it's more subtle, like if you mention it they'll be like "oh, you wouldn't want to go there..."

[PerfectHandle]

Fine...you're right. All Section 8 tenants spend their time breaking 2000 washing machines, clogging toilets, getting drunk and high and yelling at people and blasting music. I apologize.

I just want to know, who are the people moving when someone's apartment smells? Are they Section 8?

[user_99]

hey guys,

its the mush, i havent posted since the old skyscraperguy days, but i still drop in once in a while. i just thought i'd drop in on this debate seeing i have probably the best authority on section 8 and welfare seeing that i grew up on section 8 and welfare and now i work as a welfare fraud investigator for the state. bos development i can understand where you are coming from having to service people who dont really respect the property that they live in, but your facts are way off. Section 8 is a government housing subsidy, it has nothing to do with welfare, and it is geared towards working class individuals who need assistance in paying housing. They can live anywhere that a landlord uses section 8, meaning a 2 family house in stoughton rented out, or a tenament in roxbury. there are far more people on section 8 than you would think, my mother is still on it, as a single mother and administrative assistant making 13$ an hour and putting 2 kids through college, i think it is well deserved. most of the families i grew up with were section 8 families, hard working italian immigrants who needed help because of one thing or another. Now welfare which i have also been on, is for the down and out, a single mother who has lost her job and cant afford to have her kids in daycare to get a full time job, this stuff happens, i've lived it....the problem is, people start to get accustomed to the free check and find little ways to around to get more, and then the system starts to unwind...anyways i could go on for a while, but i hope you guys get the point, welfare means well, it has its flaws, so do most things, but having many friends in roxbury, i can tell you that many many families there are working thier ass off to try to do the right thing, it is friggin hard....for someone who has never been in that ultimate desperate position i guess i wouldnt expect them to know...thanks for reading guys ill pop in again soon. -the mush from the lake.

[user_48]

I had to read BOS Development's post a couple times ("they clog their toilets", "the smell from their apartment is so aweful", "selling drugs", "past due rent", "blaring music and drinking beers", "pick up trash from dunkin donuts", "drunken high haze", etc) before I realized he wasn't talking about all the white suburban kids who live in Allston and the Fenway for a few years after college before retreating to their large, isolated lots in the burbs. I guess that's just me being liberal though...

[citydave]

I personally have limited experience with section 8. I worked for a short period of time in apartment rentals and had the opportunity to meet a handful of section 8 residents. I'm definitely on the left side of the political spectrum, and although I met some hard working immigrants who were utilizing section 8, the majority of my experiences were not terribly positive. Although section eight provides owners guaranteed income, many have no desire to participate in the program because of onerous oversight, bureaucratic red tape and previous experience with irresponsible tenants. I hestitate to mention this because it is based on admittedly limited experience so take these statements with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, I quickly found that I could generally pick out a section eight renter within the first five seconds of a phone call. The phone call of a section 8 apartment seeker usually was marked by a television blaring in the background, kids interrupting, and an individual who failed to follow up on the discussion. But I encountered other section eight residents who were wonderful, hardworking people, and they suffered because their fellow patrons seem to be disproportionately irresponsible.

[BostonFaker]

I'm sorry for restarting this topic with my post to all those who do not appreciate the discussion that has been created.

As we can see, this is a very touchy subject, where stereotypes can hurt the really hard working, working class people who deserve the leg up.

I, myself, am very liberal, and believe in these programs. The abuse, though, can make people very cynical, very fast. I empathize with those who have to deal with the corruption every day.

As I said before, the working class, who are the great people who work very hard, every day, driving our busses, serving us coffee, and cleaning our floors, only because this is their only job option, do deserve to live somewhere that is safe and prosperous. They serve a very vital capacity to our economy, but our capitalistic economy can leave people out, struggling to make ends meet, even while working as hard as everyone else.

I just hope people keep in their heart the energy to keep working hard in order to help those in this endless need.

[Roxbury_Ranger]

Well, my post certainly did one thing. It exposed the increbibly ignorant, racist feelings of a number of forumers. Hmmmm.... I guess not a lot has changed since 1974 after all. And I was believing that Boston had actually become a more tolerant kind of place.

Oh well; reading the recent responses has been quite an education for me.

Oh, and BTW, to those who insist on responding with ZERO knowledge on the subject: "Affordable" in this context means "owner-occupied" for individuals at 80-120 % of median family income for the City of Boston. Very few of the units discussed here (with the notable exception of the development on Washington Street) are even rentals. I have not a clue what's happening with BHA run facilities.

And, individuals who are lucky enough to win the lottery the city runs to buy one of those homes (and there is a waiting list years long) don't get to choose where they live. So, a winner can be someone from Quincy as easily as someone from Dorchester, Roxbury, or South Boston.

In any event, I'm pretty much done. This is one the truly most ignorant threads I've seen. And, I'm pretty much reconfirmed in my "sarcastic" post that started all of this.

[dudeursistershot]

[PaulC]

That's the problem with discussing race. You either toe the line or get called a racist.

Recently several suburban towns dropped out of a football league because of the behavior of the team from Boston and the fact that the Boston team was training year round which is against the rules. The Black leaders in Boston immediately took the oportunity to called those towns racist. If race were the issue these towns would never have been in the same league with Boston to begin with.

If Boston is such a racist city why did the Black population double from 1960 to 1970. Then double again from 1970 to 1980. Then double again from 1980 to 1990.

There are a lot of misconceptions on both sides and I don't think this forum is the right place for such a complicated and sensitive issue. Let?s get back to discussing development in Boston.

[BOSDevelopment]

Check your facts

The majority of affordable housing unit developments in the city are rental units.

Who's being ignorant and racist?

After I had to tell a ( section 8 ) level three sex offender and his mother to quiet down because they were screaming at each other and the whole building could hear it, I thought back to this thread and how outright ignorant I was to post what I did.

[user_38]

I just wanted to contribute my limited insight....

I'm not sure where the correlation between Section 8 and "affordable housing" in this thread came from. I have no doubt that these terms are used somewhat interchangeably and that there's overlap, but affordable housing is a good concept that offers opportunities to people that otherwise might be priced out of the market. Speaking from recent experience, my girlfriend who makes approximately 60k a year was approved for an affordable housing unit in South Boston selling for approximately $205k. At market, this would have gone for $290k+. There was a comprehensive application process, strict income limits (more than $55k, less than $65k for this particular unit), appropriate down payment, and a pool of applications that resulted in the lottery system referred to earlier. Programs like these open the door to people who are willing to work hard and make an investment in their future. However, prior to this experience, I'll admit to hearing the term "affordable housing" and falling back on my own preconceived notions and negative stereotypes that it might bring to mind.

I'm just trying to point out the distinction between section 8 vouchers/housing (which I can't comment on) and the concept of affordable housing. A quick scan of the BRA's website lists more than 70% of current affordable housing opportunities as sales, not rentals, and I would guess that the new development originally referenced here would result in similar sale opportunities.

[DarkFenX]

BRA approves Crosstown Center office building
Boston Business Journal

Construction of a 210,000-square-foot office building at Crosstown Center in Roxbury will begin in October. The Boston Redevelopment Authority designated Crosstown Center Office LLC as the redeveloper of the property Thursday.

The office building is the second phase of the development. A 175-room Hampton Inn and Suites and 600-space parking garage have already been completed on the site, which borders Massachusetts Avenue, Melnea Cass Boulevard and Albany Street.

The financing for the project is nearly complete and the building will be 75 percent pre-leased, according to Kirk Sykes, a principal in the development team and president of New Boston Fund Inc.

Two tenants will lease the space as administrative back office space. One tenant, a medical institution, will lease 100,000 square feet and the second tenant will lease 80,000 square feet.

The project will also include another 600-space parking garage and 23,000 square feet of retail space.

The first phase of the project also includes retail space and a Quiznos restaurant and an Enterprise Rent-a-Car office are expected to open this month. A Dunkin' Donuts and Ground Round restaurant are due to open in November.

The office building is scheduled for occupancy in summer 2007.

[DarkFenX]

Crosstown site going commercial
By Scott Van Voorhis
Friday, September 9, 2005

Roxbury's Crosstown project, the flagship of City Hall's drive to boost the neighborhood's commercial base, is poised for a big expansion.

A year after opening a groundbreaking hotel on a once windswept site off Melnea Cass Boulevard, local developer Kirk Sykes is moving ahead with plans for a $75 million office and retail complex.

Sykes, who has office space deals with Longwood Medical Area institutions, now plans to start work on this 200,000-square-foot Roxbury expansion in November.

The expansion should bring as many as 600 new jobs, atop the few hundred already created by the opening of the Hampton Inn & Suites Crosstown Center and a modest but growing number of eateries and shops, Sykes said.

The project's success, in turn, is sending an important message to the wider corporate world, the developer contends.

``The hotel was always intended to be the catalyst that said the lights are on in Roxbury,'' Sykes noted. ``It has acted as a gateway and brought in a lot of people who might not have normally gone to Roxbury.''

Still, Crosstown's success did not come easily.

The redevelopment project was first proposed in the late 1990s, but then spent years battling to get off the ground. City Hall and other public agencies wound up pumping in $17 million, an investment that helped move Crosstown into construction, Sykes said.

[garbribre]

Now this area needs to be designated a BID. Is it?

[Lurker]

Boston doesn't have any BID's. Mumbles has been trying establish one in DTX for years now, but the legislature refuses to relinquish control of taxation from its chambers. Too many patronage jobs would be at stake and a model of efficiency might tip off constituents that the local government is highly inefficient in how it spends our money. NYC has seen wonders worked with them, but sadly Boston is too corrupt and proud to confront its problems and change.

[DarkFenX]

BRA seeks development offers for Roxbury parcel
Boston Business Journal

The Boston Redevelopment Authority on Monday issued a request for proposals for a long-awaited development site in Roxbury, setting off a domino effect that will eventually trigger the development of six other parcels.

The Boston Business Journal reported in April that the parcel, called P-3, would be the first of seven publicly owned sites earmarked for development in Roxbury as part of its master plan.

Located at Tremont and Ruggles streets, the site is at "a nexus of major roadways, multiple public transit lines, academic institutions, commercial centers and the within close proximity to the Longwood Medical Area's emerging medical and research outpost at Crosstown," according to a release issued by the Boston Redevelopment Authority.

The BRA would like the 7-acre P-3 parcel redeveloped in a way that would create jobs and business ownership opportunities for Roxbury resdidents and the city.

Potential uses for the site include office, research and development, or light industrial with ground-floor retail, according to the BRA. The RFP also stipulates development should support community- and minority-owned businesses that will diversify Roxbury's local economy and create ties between the city and regional economies.

The RFP was officially advertised and became available on Friday; development proposals are due on April 3. Working with the Roxbury Strategic Master Plan Oversight Committee, the BRA will craft the second request for proposals for the redevelopment of the second of the seven publicly owned sites, the Bartlett Yard, a 374,300-square-foot parcel owned by the MBTA and located on Washington and Bartlett streets just outside of Dudley Square.

[PaulC]

The Bartlett Yard is a good size piece piece of land and located close to Dudley Square. if developed right this could be a nice additions to the city, especially along Washington St. The city should make this mostly market rate since there are already dozens of housing projects in this area already.

[shiz02130]

I don't understand why they'd want this site, and all the others along Tremont/Columbus and Melnea Cass, to be offices. This area is completely dead, there is never any foot traffic because there is no streetwall or destinations. And we have this huge demand for housing. There is so much underdeveloped land near this intersection, and it could be used for NON-LUXURY residential. Like 10-12 story apartment buildings with retail on the ground floor. Why don't they take a cue from the very first block of Tremont, northeast from Melnea Cass? It's all 6-story apartment buildings with stores fronting the street. Is it impossible to build more of what actually works? Can we extend South End-style buildings farther south? Why not?

[BostonFaker]

[PaulC]

This area is about half way between the Longwood Medical area and the South End medical area

[Rick]

bump

[Mike]

Globe Editorial:


Dudley Square's new look


Good physical design shouldn't be limited to downtown commercial districts. In late February, Menino met in Miami with urban planners and six big city mayors, including mayors Richard Daley of Chicago and Martin O'Malley of Baltimore, to ponder specific design challenges as part of the Mayors' Institute on City Design sponsored by the National Endowment for the Arts. Menino presented the problem of Dudley Square in Roxbury, an area that remains underdeveloped despite a boost from nearly $250 million in public and private capital over the past seven years.

Existing plans for the area call for the redevelopment of a contaminated electroplating factory with new retail and office space. Fresh eyes at the Mayors' Institute, however, agreed that the site might be more suitable for a new police station. That would allow the prominent site on Dudley Street now occupied by a time-worn police station to be redeveloped with retail opportunities. If the desultory bus station nearby could be redesigned to make it easy for commuters to reach the new stores, then Dudley Square could be redefined as an attractive neighborhood center.

Menino has developed a passion for such planning exercises. Now he needs to become similarly excited by implementation. The administration designated a local developer in 2000 to redevelop the Dudley Square site. Neighborhoods aren't built by limitless trips to the drawing board.



Link

[Ron Newman]

That "time-worn police station" doesn't look very old to me; wasn't it built in the 1970s? Also, the same building contains the neighborhood's library branch, which will need a new home if it is torn down.

Considering how close this is to Boston's police headquarters, perhaps this branch station could be dispensed with entirely, and not replaced.

[Lurker]

Considering police HQ is almost always empty, that might be a good idea.

[Charliemta]

One thing that would greatly boost Dudley Square would be converting the Silver Line to light rail, feeding directly into the Green Line at Boylston and Park Stations. I know most of us have said that over and over again, but this solution is painfully obvious for the Dudley Square issue.

[TC]

I agree a green line extension would help this area instead of the 49 BUS we call the silver line.

One thing about the silverline project that really bothers me is how two independent transportation projects got linked in the 1st place.

The popular phrase is that they are 'providing a one seat ride from dudley to the airport'. Why is this important to people living in or around dudley square? If someone needs to get that kind of access to the airport they are probably already living in east boston.

Also if they were really concerned about getting transit from dudley to the seaport/airport, the route would not go into chinatown, drive in a circle, then proceed toward south station. If I got in a cab at Dudley and asked to go to the airport and I was taken for this ride I would file a complaint.

I always thought a route that cut through south boston via Andrew would have made more sense if I was trying to get to the waterfront. (extend this in the other direction to longwood and now we have the start of the urban ring)

[statler]

[Lurker]

Yep, that's right complain about an area being a burned out wreck of a neighborhood and then complain even more when the money to fix everything rolls in and raises the property values. The give us the money and stay out of way attitude is childish and should not fly in the real world where economic matter.

''The employees around here say most of the products around here are geared toward black people or aren't brands they recognize and they won't buy them"

Self segregation, whether it is ethnic or in this case quite racist, is guaranteed path to failure. Isolationism leads to cultural stagnation and death. I also find it particularly insulting to assume to that because a person is of a particular race or ethnicity they aren't going to be familiar with particular products. Especially in this case where the opposition is to a store that's A FRICKEN' NATIONAL CHAIN FOR PETE'S SAKE. This is as bad as the 19Th century newspapers making fun of Irish people by saying they didn't understand the concept of soap.

[Ron Newman]

Different ethnic groups do have different taste in food. You probably sell more Goya brand products in Jackson Square or Maverick Square than you do in Winchester. If the national retailers coming into this area have done their market research, they'll succeed.

[dudeursistershot]

[ALEEJAC]

I'm with Dude on that one... if he's selling the same products for less money, then he shouldn't be worried about Walgreens.

[Scott]

One minute the government is saying to fix the place up with this loan, pay it back, and you`ll be part of the future of the square. Now suddenly his business is in trouble where it would not have been before government intervention. That`s a real kick in the ass for a guy who stuck out the hard times when nobody else would.

The man was given a loan by the taxpayers, if he defaults the taxpayers suffer.

[dudeursistershot]

[Ron Newman]

I don't see what 'communism' has to do with protecting a private business. Communism means there aren't any private businesses.

[ablarc]

^ Wordplay, Ron. "Communism" wasn't used literally. He means the government's not obligated to save weak businesses.

Not obvious?

[statler]

[ablarc]

[statler]

^^ [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law]Exactly[/url]. It waters down the true meaning of the word and shouldn't be encouraged.

[Ron Newman]

What is described here is not that different from Nantucket voting to bar national chains from the town center, or from my own neighborhood lobbying the city of Somerville to reject a Quizno's sub shop in Davis Square because it would provide nothing that wasn't already available from many locally-owned businesses.

[Scott]

It is not the governments responsibility to foster competition or help businesses in any way or even to tax for that matter, if you believe the Libertarian dogma. Libertarians also believe in a completely open border with Mexico but I don`t think that`s such a great idea either. Though I do agree with them about gay marriage being a persons right.

[Scott]

[ALEEJAC]

(I have never set foot in Dudley Square)

One thing to keep in mind is that stores don't disappear because a mystical monster swoops in, devours the merchandise and kills the owner. They disappear when the previously loyal customers voluntarily give their money to a competitor.

Perhaps this is an opportunity for existing businesses to evolve and become competitive in the face of a national chain.

-ALJ

[ablarc]