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Redeveloping Roxbury
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dudeursistershot



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 715
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scott wrote:
It is not the governments responsibility to foster competition or help businesses in any way or even to tax for that matter, if you believe the Libertarian dogma.


There's a significant difference between libertarianism and anarchy.

Scott wrote:
Libertarians also believe in a completely open border with Mexico but I don`t think that`s such a great idea either.


I do.


Scott wrote:
ablarc wrote:
^ Wordplay, Ron. "Communism" wasn't used literally. He means the government's not obligated to save weak businesses.

Not obvious?


It`s not the governments place to bankrupt healthy businesses in the name of progress either.


The government isnt doing anything. Consumers would be voluntarily giving up their money to a different private business.

I was being hyperbolic by referring to communism. You can substitute the word socialism for communism. It's an equally horrible and failed idea as communism but it describes the situation a bit better.
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dudeursistershot



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 715
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ron Newman wrote:
What is described here is not that different from Nantucket voting to bar national chains from the town center, or from my own neighborhood lobbying the city of Somerville to reject a Quizno's sub shop in Davis Square because it would provide nothing that wasn't already available from many locally-owned businesses.


Exactly, it's no different than those situations. It's equal. Equally unconstitutional. Equally wrong. Equally stupid. Equally illegal.
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Ron Newman



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Whereas I see all three as justifiable attempts to keep a local place local.
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ALEEJAC



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So, are people here willing to ban certain establishments based on where in the world the company got its start?
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Scott



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 163
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don`t oppose Walgreen's or any other store moving to the Square, but I would say to the next shop owner that its financial suicide to take that loan. Let someone else pay to spruce up the storefronts because doing the right thing could see the end of your business. You`ll end up competing with the big guys and be saddled with debt in the process.
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dudeursistershot



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 715
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ron Newman wrote:
Whereas I see all three as justifiable attempts to keep a local place local.


And that's why you're a socialist/communist.

If the locals want to stay local, they'll shop at the local place. If they don't want to stay local, they'll shop at the more competitive national chain and their income will effectively be raised due to the cost of goods decreasing. It's none of the government's business whether one business goes out of business or not. That's for the owners or stockholders to deal with.
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Ron Newman



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry, but I still don't see any connection to either 'communism' or 'socialism' in these efforts.
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ALEEJAC



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
He's simply using 'communist' as hyperbole for the desire for government muscle flexing in private business. We should probably get off it, since it puts people in an argumentative or defensive mood.

The bottomline is that people voluntarily (consciously, I hope) choose one store over another. If one pharmacy fails and one succeeds, blame the locals and the failing store owner. Don't blame the succeeding store, they are simply providing what the community really wants.

-ALJ
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Scott



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 163
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, he`s just a smart ass college kid with obnoxious avatars who doesn`t seem to know the difference between a Republican and a Libertarian.

This forum and its predecessor were alot better when we stuck to serious discussion about the city by people who love this stuff. This isn`t SSP or SSC were they talk out there ass and children are tolerated. I cannot remember anyone openly insulting another person on this forum until a few select individuals washed up on our shores.
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ALEEJAC



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
At the risk of making this thread productive again, does anybody (smart-ass, communist, libertarian or otherwise) have photos of the area? Is there an existing photo thread of Dudley Square?

-ALJ
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kz1000ps



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 112
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scott wrote:
......obnoxious avatars....



And signatures....

This cannot be stressed enough. Dude, you've made your political leanings more than clear through your words. Do you really need to visually shove them down our throats too?
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Scott



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why don`t you create one for us ALEEJAC?

Until then, I`d suggest reading this study for some good factual information:
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/rappaport/downloads/paes/yoon/dudleysq_retail.pdf

It`s 10 years old but the issues are pretty much the same.
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ALEEJAC



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Why don`t you create one for us ALEEJAC?

...'cause it's cold and rainy and I don't have a digital camera. Time will fix the former, me saving money will fix the later.

Thanks for the link!

-ALJ
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dudeursistershot



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 715
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scott wrote:
No, he`s just a smart ass college kid with obnoxious avatars who doesn`t seem to know the difference between a Republican and a Libertarian.


First of all, I'm not in college. Second of all, I'm quite aware of the difference. Republicans like war. I don't. Republicans are socially crazy. I'm socially progressive. Therefore, I identify with Libertarians more than any other party. Republicans are the people I identify with least.

Enough of this
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admin
Site Admin


Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guys, please, enough already.
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Matt



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 840
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scott wrote:
No, he`s just a smart ass college kid with obnoxious avatars who doesn`t seem to know the difference between a Republican and a Libertarian.

This forum and its predecessor were alot better when we stuck to serious discussion about the city by people who love this stuff. This isn`t SSP or SSC were they talk out there ass and children are tolerated. I cannot remember anyone openly insulting another person on this forum until a few select individuals washed up on our shores.


AMEN BROTHER. the insulting/bullying has to stop...that will be what could end this thing...people are going to be sick of it and not come around. And before people get on the freedom of speech thing...let's remember that's not absolute (insightful speech is highly questionable...'fire' in a theater, etc). But I will not debate any of this. Moving on...

I too will get out get some pictures. I have some friends who just moved to dudley square...they moved into a relatively affordable condo in a gorgeous mansion, off of washington street right behind fort hill. They're a white hetero couple...somewhat an enigma (a lot of the other white people are the gay guys priced out of the south end). So, they feel that they sort of stand out, but they're ok with that

I had no idea how beautiful some of the architecture is in that area!! Then again, it was where the wealthy lived before all of the landfill of 1800s, correct?

They state that the area is still somewhat sketchy, but feel they are trailblazers. My friend goes to this coffee shop/bakery that just opened by the people who own the Haley House in the South End...first sign of funky retail
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Ronwell



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
These pictures were posted at the beginning of the thread, but here they are again. I took them about two years ago.

Here are a few from Dudley Square, the rest are on this link

http://www.pbase.com/lmjcobalt/dudley_square










Ooh Silver Line





And Fort Hill

again a few pictures, but the rest are here.

http://www.pbase.com/lmjcobalt/fort_hill











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ablarc



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 825
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good to have you on board, Ronwell!
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cityrecord



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 33
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ronwell: Great photos. I have a couple of Dudley Square photos c. 1895 that I will try to post for comparison, including a shot of the Dartmouth Hotel.

Matt: You wrote "I had no idea how beautiful some of the architecture is in that area!! Then again, it was where the wealthy lived before all of the landfill of 1800s, correct?"

Not really. Roxbury was an independent town until right after the Civil War. Boston's elite did have a few scattered country houses in Roxbury, but most of them would have lived in Beacon Hill and the South End prior to the filling of the Back Bay. There is a scene at the opening of John P. Marquand's "The Late George Apley" where Apley's grandfather knows it is time to leave the South End for the Back Bay when he sees a man sitting on his front steps in shirtsleeves.

I'm sure some of Roxbury's development was driven by proximity to Boston and regular street transportation, but I get the sense that it was the middling sort who lived in Roxbury, not Boston's wealthier residents. Incidentally, William Lloyd Garrison ended up in Roxbury because he couldn't live in Boston for fear of being attacked for his anti-slavery views.
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ALEEJAC



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 31
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perfect, thanks for the pics.
-ALJ
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Roxxma



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 170
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow Ronwell, you managed to got most of my immediate neighborhood, except for my street itself (Linwood), though you came pretty close...
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