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Seaport Update
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Merper



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

... but not better than much else.

that thing would fit in nicely on the Las Vegas strip.

is it really better than a parking lot? I'm starting to think it might be better to keep em parking lots until proper city building is relearned.
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DarkFenX



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure where to put this since it includes both the ICA and Fan Pier so I'll just put it here.

South Bay?s developer has designs on ICA building
By Scott Van Voorhis/ Dealmakers
Friday, November 4, 2005


Hub developer Steve Samuels, fast becoming one of Boston?s more prolific builders, is about to get even busier.

Samuels broke into the development big leagues in the 1990s with an urban retail home run, the South Bay shopping center in Dorchester off Morrissey Boulevard.

Lately Samuels has been busy around Boston?s hottest new development zone, the streets around Fenway Park, with one apartment high-rise under construction and another on the way.

Now Samuels is closing in on another deal - the Institute of Contemporary Art?s longtime Back Bay home on Boylston Street across from the Hynes Convention Center, according to a real estate executive close to the deal.

The ICA has been ensconced for the past 30 years in a pair of Boylston Street buildings that date to the 1880s, including a former police station that was renovated in 1975.

However, the ICA is now on the hunt for cash as it builds a stunning new building on the South Boston waterfront at Fan Pier.

Condos, the flavor of the day among developers, might be a good bet.

A spokeswoman for the ICA confirmed that the nonprofit is in discussions with a potential buyer for its long-time Back Bay home, but declined to offer up names.

A spokeswoman for Samuels had no comment.

New York real estate player Vornado Real Estate Trust is homing in on a major Hub deal.

Vornado is the player behind a pair of local developers hammering out a deal for a prime Columbus Avenue building site in the South End, real estate executives said.

Hungry for Boston real estate, Vornado recently bought a stake in the struggling Suffolk Downs racetrack in East Boston. If horse racing collapses, Suffolk has hundreds of acres of valuable developent land.

But Vornado?s deal for 303 Columbus Ave. is likely to give the Big Apple firm more immediate profit gratification.

The site, a scrappy commercial building and parking lot, comes with a good-as-gold, city-approved condo high-rise plan. That, in turn, is the fine work of well-connected developers Paul Roiff and Joseph Fallon.

Both of whom are likely to be smiling on their way to the bank: The purchase price is a whopping $18 million, executives said.

Speaking of Fallon, here?s another sign that the waterfront builder is serious about making the long-delayed Fan Pier waterfront plan a reality.

Fallon has begun interviewing commercial real estate firms to begin hawking office space in Fan Pier?s planned corporate high-rises, according to one executive angling for the contract.

The builder - a close friend of Mayor Thomas M. Menino who has taken on a number of key projects in Southie?s emerging waterfront - is seeking a real estate firm that can bring home an anchor tenant for the $1.2 billion harborside complex.

Fallon and the real estate arm of MassMutual recently bought the prime waterfront site from Chicago?s billionaire Pritzker family for $115 milion.

The deal came after decades of futile efforts by the Pritzkers to develop Fan Pier?s sprawling parking lots into a new waterfront neighborhood.
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Ron Newman



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's too bad. I'd rather have seen the Boston Architectural Center get the building and watched what they would do with it.
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BlinkieOB



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the wiki, if you look at the Seaport views of the BRA 3D models, what is the huge development between the Westin and the Seaport Hotel? I've always wondered what might go there.
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justin



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A shopping mall, maybe a residential high-rise.

justin
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BlinkieOB



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So have either of these actually been proposed formally yet? Do we know anything else about it right now? I'm a little uncertain of what the colors actually mean in the BRA models, but it seems to show that this development is farther along than many in some way.
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justin



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
? 2004 American City Business Journals Inc.
Boston Business Journal - September 15, 2004

http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2004/09/13/daily31.html

Developer Drew unveils Waterside Place plans
by Michelle Hillman

Developer John Drew on Wednesday launched development plans for the area known as the "Core Block" -- an 11-acre site which the Core Development Group LLC has renamed Waterside Place.

The new mixed-use project will include 210 condominiums on the corner of Congress and D streets, a 300-room hotel and 2,300 parking spaces, as well as two anchor stores totaling 300,000 square feet and another 400,000 square feet of retail shops. The plan also calls for a 25,000 square-foot visitor center across from the new 1.6 million-square-foot Boston Convention & Exhibition Center along World Trade Center Avenue.

The Core Development Group LLC is a collaboration between the Drew Co. and Urban Retail Properties of Chicago. The group was chosen earlier this year by the Massachusetts Port Authority to develop the project in South Boston.

Drew outlined development plans and renderings at a meeting of the National Association of Industrial and Office Properties held at the BCEC on Wednesday. Part of the design features a 70- to 80-foot glass enclosed building which will be visible from Summer Street, as well as other design elements that Drew said would create a "playful" experience.

The plans were announced following the filing of the "Project Notification Form" and the "Environmental Notification Form," which triggers further processeses with the city and the state respectively. Kallmann McKinnell & Wood Architects and Callison Architects have designed the project.

Drew said he plans to break ground in 2006 and hopes to be open in 2008.

Waterside Place will bring a mix of uses to the area, including a total of 628,000 square feet of retail and convenience shopping options to the waterfront, with 75 stores planned. It will also feature16-screen movie theater and the Boston Visitor Center, which will provide information about the waterfront and other Boston-area, state and regional attractions.

"Waterside Place will further transform this area of the city into an inviting and active urban district, filling in a gap in the South Boston Waterfront," said Drew in a statement. "The co-existence of retail uses, residences, and other amenities will contribute to creating a vibrant destination for residents and visitors to Boston."

The Drew Company has developed the Seaport World Trade Center complex, a 2.75 million-square-foot office, hotel and convention development on the Boston waterfront, developed in partnership with Fidelity Investments.
? 2004 American City Business Journals Inc.


http://www.watersideplace.net/

justin
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BlinkieOB



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. This sounds like a really exciting development. I remember hearing about this now. I'm assuming, since we haven't heard much about this, that it is quite possible it won't really break ground in 2006. I'd like to see it as soon as possible, though. Definitely would be great for the area.

Not crazy about the name though. Waterside Place? Sounds so bland. Even Harborside Place would be much better, in my opinion.
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Brian



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The renderings look slightly better than what I was expecting, though that whole "sail" feature that is going on in Seaport architecture is going to get boring real fast if it keeps up.
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Vanshnookenraggen



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going to get boring? But then this is Boston so we can't have anything new and exciting. Atleast not too new and exciting. [/sarcasm]
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BostonFaker



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boston can't support another mall....

Include local amenities for residents...
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dudeursistershot



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone else think that this looks absolutely awful? It reminds me of a suburban Atlanta mall from both the rendering and the description. It looks like one of the worst developments we will ever see on the waterfront on a lot of different levels. 2300 parking spaces? What the f*ck? 75 stores in one place? WTF? This is absolutely terrible. It's a suburban mall with a hotel and some condos on top, and the parking lot stuck underneath the building. This will bring a new, incredible, amazing level of awful to the waterfront. It will redefine the word "terrible".
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ablarc



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dudeursistershot wrote:
Does anyone else think that this looks absolutely awful? It reminds me of a suburban Atlanta mall from both the rendering and the description. It looks like one of the worst developments we will ever see on the waterfront on a lot of different levels. 2300 parking spaces? What the f*ck? 75 stores in one place? WTF? This is absolutely terrible. It's a suburban mall with a hotel and some condos on top, and the parking lot stuck underneath the building. This will bring a new, incredible, amazing level of awful to the waterfront. It will redefine the word "terrible".

What did you expect? The whole district is going this way.

Let's have a big hand for the developer and his lackeys: the mayor, the BRA, Vivien Li and the Harbor folks, and the Community that isn't. Let's hear it for Boston going suburban when the country's cities are all headed the other way.
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tocoto



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the sad truths about the Seaport is that it is still seen as a very risky area to build in. That's one of the reasons we see such cheap architectue and materials in the building there excepting the state subsidized convention center, and massport subsized land for Manual Life.

Fidelity was one of the first developers there and the head of the company, Ned Johnson, was quoted as saying that the pace of development has been slower than he wished, meaning his investment has not grown very fast. For proof, look no furhter than the fact that world trade center 3 has not been built, even though Fidelity has the rights to do so.

Hopefully, as money goes into the area it will seem like a better investment, and we will start to see some better buildings. I hope this happens before it is all built-out with schlock.
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BostonFaker



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tocoto wrote:
One of the sad truths about the Seaport is that it is still seen as a very risky area to build in. That's one of the reasons we see such cheap architectue and materials in the building there excepting the state subsidized convention center, and massport subsized land for Manual Life.

Fidelity was one of the first developers there and the head of the company, Ned Johnson, was quoted as saying that the pace of development has been slower than he wished, meaning his investment has not grown very fast. For proof, look no furhter than the fact that world trade center 3 has not been built, even though Fidelity has the rights to do so.

Hopefully, as money goes into the area it will seem like a better investment, and we will start to see some better buildings. I hope this happens before it is all built-out with schlock.


Also there's no office market....
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BlinkieOB



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the property it is being built on, though- it kind of has to be a huge development.
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chumbolly



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully the new mall will include a Cheers restaurant, so that visiting conventioneers can get a taste of the real Boston!

Maybe Waterside Place will lure the Gap, Coach, Victoria's Secret, Ann Taylor and all those other awful McRetailers from Quincy Market and something a little more interesting could replace them. After all, the new mall, unlike Quincy Market, will have parking. Though thinking just now, I have no idea why something good like that would happen. Eh, the dreck multiplies.
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ablarc



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chumbolly, I share your despair.

Sometimes I think these discussions of the architectural features of Seaport buildings remind me of learned critics stroking their beards and intoning sagely over the relative sculptural merits of various pieces of shit.
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DowntownDave



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's today's status of the various pieces of shit... Smile





Look whats away down the street....



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ablarc



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ See what I mean? Smile
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DarkFenX



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it. I think it turned out ok. Not really a terrible building. Boring but ok.
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Bowwest



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The color looks much better in the setting sun.
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tocoto



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In its defense, the seaport is still in its infancy. It's a risky new frontier for a developer. Some of the pioneering buildings aren' great but some are decent. Give it 10 years. It sure looks a lot better than the empty lots we had there for decades.
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justin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks urban enough to me.

justin
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briv



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin, you've certainly softened with time.

Urban? Barely maybe. This is Edge City right in the middle of the city. But since when did non-suburbaness alone denote a good building anyways? Has the bar really been lowered this far? Just because a building doesn't sit surrounded by a moat of parking lots does that make it inherently good? I don't think so. This complex is junk stacked high. Big, monotonous, and worst of all, it screams of penny-pinching cheapness. Those pre-cast concrete wall modules (which unfortunately seem to popping up on the vast majority of the big projects in Boston these days) are flat-out disgusting. I think showing a consideration for the public realm signifies good "urbaness" much more than merely meeting the street, and this building shows absolute indifference to it. Are those moronic grooves in the facades supposed to be some sort of substitute for real aesthetics? Are we supposed to be happy because its not a big blank wall? Sorry but I expect much more than that.

This whole Seaport is shaping up to be pretty much one big, goddamn nightmare. There's nothing quite like taking a once-in-a-century opportunity and flushing it down the toilet. Shame.
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justin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briv wrote:
Justin, you've certainly softened with time.

Despair will do it...
Quote:
But since when did non-suburbaness alone denote a good building anyways?

Never said that. I totally agree with you; I was just pointing out that this place could have been worse.

justin
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dudeursistershot



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justin wrote:
this place could have been worse.

justin


How could it have been worse?
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ablarc



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dudeursistershot wrote:
How could it have been worse?

Well, it could have stayed parking lots.

Or it could have been buildings surrounded by parking lots.

It's definitely better than a parking lot.
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dudeursistershot



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ablarc wrote:
dudeursistershot wrote:
How could it have been worse?

Well, it could have stayed parking lots.

Or it could have been buildings surrounded by parking lots.

It's definitely better than a parking lot.


heh... but I really don't think it would be possible to be worse than this. I mean you can come up with disaster scenarios like putting a suburban subdivision of ranch-style houses on acre parcels, but that would never have happened. Within the realm of the possible, I think this is probably one of the worst designs possible. I would prefer a parking lot. With a parking lot at least, there is potential.
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tocoto



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never thought I'd defend the Seaport but here goes....


Once people begin to occupy the residential buildings and hotels, the little things that bring life to a neighborhood will come. The architecture of the buildings there won't get better, but some better buildings might get built once the area is more established. At least there is an emerging street wall along Northern Ave. with some retail and restaurants

Fan Pier and Pier 4 will bring more life and urban streetscape. The Seaport will never be the Back Bay, but its not really Kendal Square either. In KS they built offices, labs and hotels with almost no residential for 20 years or more (until now) In the seaport, the residential is going in early, so we may end up with a better place. A few ugly buildings, but a destination none the less. I see a lot of potential still and it's certainly better than nothing.

I remember taking the ferry to Provincetown from Commenwwealth Pier back in 1985. Virtually the entire area was a wasteland and was far more depressing and dead than what is finally starting to emerge now.

Urbanity is a lot more than good architecture. Urbanity needs people. Hong Kong has great urbanity and loads of crappy architecture at street level. In some ways, good architecture is icing on the cake.
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ablarc



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tocoto wrote:
Never thought I'd defend the Seaport but here goes....

Good for you, tocoto, everything you say rings true and needed to be said.

You summarize it succinctly:

tocoto wrote:
it's certainly better than nothing.

I heartily agree, 'coz, like you, I remember when:

tocoto wrote:
Virtually the entire area was a wasteland and was far more depressing and dead than what is finally starting to emerge now.

As Briv says we've lowered the bar in Boston; you have to keep in mind that it's better than a parking lot.

.
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TheBostonian



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Just a reminder: The ArchBoston Wiki has a constantly updating news page with links to the relevant forum threads. http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/architecturalboston/news.cfm)

Frank goes McCourting: Developer hopes to woo buyers
By Scott Van Voorhis
Tuesday, December 6, 2005 - Updated: 09:55 AM EST

Los Angeles Dodgers owner Frank McCourt is exploring deals to separately sell one or more pieces of his extensive land holdings on South Boston?s waterfront, real estate executives said.
After months of talks with a top retail developer, McCourt has yet to announce a deal for the build-out of the bulk of his 24-acre Southie site.

http://business.bostonherald.com/realestateNews/view.bg?articleid=115709
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BlinkieOB



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if, between McCourt's potential upscale retail complex and the Waterside Place upscale retail complex, whoever makes a major move first will scare the other developers off.
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PerfectHandle



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, Waterside Place will probably be first. They're supposed to break ground early 2007.

Second, I don't think anyone will be scared off. The more critical mass there is down there the better. Waterside will be an attraction, not only for those in the city and along the SB Waterfront, but also those people who live along 93 South, the Mass Pike and in East Boston. It's so accessible. This whole thing's going to move really fast once it gets started.
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DarkFenX



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is part one of the article.

?First movers? race to shake up Hub office market
By Scott Van Voorhis/ Dealmakers
Friday, December 9, 2005


It would seem almost absurd given the morbid gloom encompassing the half-empty towers of the city?s Financial District.

More than one real estate executive has recommended the last rites for Boston?s depressed office market.

Well, you can forget about the funeral.

Because some of the city?s savviest developers are looking ahead to a very different day ? a day of champagne and back slapping as Fan Pier?s Joe Fallon or national office titan Sam Zell celebrates the opening of Boston?s newest office tower.

The builders brazen enough to look past the current down market are already racing to be the first to roll out the Hub?s next corporate palace. Call it first mover advantage.

At Fan Pier, longtime city developer Joseph Fallon is scrambling to get into the ground next year with a 500,000-square-foot office high-rise as he pushes ahead with long-delayed plans for the $1.2 billion complex on South Boston?s waterfront.

Meanwhile, just a short walk over the Fort Point Channel to the edge of the Financial District, Zell?s Chicago-based Equity Office Properties Trust is racing ahead with plans for a new office and residential skyrise of its own.

This is not a quest for some odd real estate bragging rights.

Rather, past history has shown the first tower to open its doors amid a rising market can be a commercial real estate grand slam.

Just ask Don Chiofaro, whose first tower in his twin peak International Place led the market in the 1980s and struck real estate gold.

His second tower, by contrast, fell flat in the rough market of the early 1990s.

While coy about his intentions, it was not a theory that Fallon rejected.

?There has been growing interest in this location from a number of major tenants in Boston for the past 20 years,? Fallon said. ?I think we would be one of the first to hit the ?09 market.?

Fallon also appears to have solved a quandary that bedeviled the fruitless, 25-year drive by Fan Pier?s previous owners, Chicago?s billionaire Pritzker family, to build the largest waterfront project in the city of Boston?s history.

Fallon has scrapped plans to build a giant, $200-million-plus parking garage under the harborside site, instead opting for smaller, individual parking garages.

This could help speed up his overall planning ? and maybe help him steal a march on Equity Office Properties Trust and its Russia Wharf tower plan.
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Rick



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bump
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kz1000ps



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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justin



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No red brick! Now that's what I call progress.

justin
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Mike



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Restaurant owners see promise -- and peril -- in Seaport
Boston Business Journal - March 3, 2006
by Naomi R. Kooker
Journal Staff


Zuma Tex-Mex Grill owner and chef Cody Baker is doing everything he can to get in on the ground floor of the South Boston Seaport development. Jim Cafarelli, CEO of Rustic Kitchen in Canton, wouldn't touch the neighborhood with a 10-foot spatula.

But it is Baker who seems to reflect the prevailing opinion that the Seaport could be Boston's next restaurant mecca. While local and national restaurateurs circle the area, developers are deciding what mix of cuisines will work and who will draw the diners. Some have already decided who gets to set up shop.

Two leases have been signed at the Park Lane Seaport complex: Pressed Sandwiches is taking a 10-year lease for 2,000 square feet and may apply for a beer and wine license, and Legal Sea Foods Test Kitchen is planning a 135-seat, 4,500-square-foot restaurant. Both restaurants will have outdoor seating and are slated to open in May.

The complex, which includes 465 luxury apartments, has a total of 20,000 square feet of retail space. Developer Joseph Fallon said he is in negotiations with several prospective tenants, including two banks and between one and three restaurants to occupy 8,000 square feet. He'd said he'd like to bring a mix of cuisines, such as Mexican, Asian or a steakhouse.

Fallon's plans for the 20-acre Fan Pier site, which he purchased in 2005 and where he hopes to begin construction next year, will have about a total of 200,000 square feet dedicated to retail and restaurants.

"I've had restaurants call, saying when the first building comes on line I want to be there," he said.

Fleming's Prime Steakhouse and Wine Bar is negotiating a lease at The Westin Boston Waterfront, a 790-room luxury hotel adjacent to the Boston Convention & Exhibition Center, according to Douglass E. Karp of New England Development in Newton. Karp said his company is leasing close to 100,000 square feet of retail space in the Westin on three levels, with plans calling for a minimum of three restaurants on the top level with room for up to six more on the other levels.

Among those who have looked at the Westin space include Roy's, a concept owned by Outback Steakhouse Inc. of Tampa, Fla., which also operates Fleming's; Guappo Inc., which operates Radius, Via Matta and Great Bay; The Lyons Group; and chef and restaurateur Barbara Lynch, who owns and operates No. 9 Park, according to Karp.

"We're talking to every local, regional and national chain," said Karp.

Naysayers contend it's too early to know what the neighborhood will become and too risky to invest in it.

"I don't understand what's going on over there," said Cafarelli. "My whole life they've been developing the waterfront."

But those who have signed leases or are hoping to are lured by the promise of getting in on the ground floor.

Tony Ambrose of Blackfin Chophouse and Raw Bar in Boston said he's been looking in the area for more than three years. The area, he said, is "on its way to great potential."

Restaurant consultant Michael J. Staub of Group M Inc. in Cambridge said he has looked at Seaport locations with clients and calls it is a prime area for restaurant development because of its planned residential density and its easy access from downtown and South Boston proper.

Closer to Fort Point Channel are 346 and 354 Congress St., a Boston-based Berkeley Investments Inc. project with 101 condos and a total of 18,000 square feet of retail space. The renovations are about a year and a half away from completion.

"We're trying to attract the non-chain type of restaurant into the market," said Rick Griffin, vice president of acquisitions at Berkeley Investments.

Michael Leviton, chef/owner of Lumiere in West Newton, said if he can get the right deal he'd open a restaurant in the Seaport, but added anyone opening there would need financial "protection" since the area is "unproven" and may take years to become a dining destination.

"It's like a lottery ticket," said Zuma's Baker, who said he would need to raise $1 million to open a Zuma in the Seaport neighborhood, and he said he's looking for financing.

But even a restaurateur as sold on the Seaport as Baker is feeling a bit wary about investing in the nascent neighborhood.

"This is a great opportunity," he said. "But I could lose my house."


Link
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ablarc



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 825

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naomi R. Kooker wrote:
Tony Ambrose of Blackfin Chophouse and Raw Bar in Boston said he's been looking in the area for more than three years. The area, he said, is "on its way to great potential."

Is that like getting ready to get started?
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Matt



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, this has become a minor foodie town, where chefs are considered minor celebrities...if someone like barbara lynch opened up a restaurant in the seaport area, people would go because they will follow her anywhere. Same with the lyons group...the sheer number of employees from his other places would keep a place going out there...they tend to hang out in the sister restaurants/clubs. Tap into that hospitality crowd and the fort point channel residents desperate for a good bite to eat, and this could be an interesting way to make that area come alive....at least until the rest of residential units are constructed and that mall comes alive. Nordstrom's alone would make this area a destination for many people.

It'll be fine...we'll all hate the way it looks, but at least it won't be kendall square (knock on wood). I think we're all going to have to accept that it's not going to be what it could have been.

Then, we can watch assembly square go through the exact same thing.
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Matt



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so, how just how old are we all going to be when this area is done??

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Southie plan may take four years
By Scott Van Voorhis
Thursday, April 6, 2006 - Updated: 01:45 AM EST

Rupert Murdoch?s News Corp. has said it is eager to push forward with development of its newly acquired land on South Boston?s waterfront.

But the media giant may have to cool its heels - possibly until the end of the decade - before construction crews can start hammering out a new neighborhood of condos, shops and offices.

?Four years from now - start to finish,? predicted Vivien Li, executive director of the Boston Harbor Association. ?It could take that long.?

A lengthy review and planning period is not atypical in Boston, where big projects - especially those on or near the waterfront - draw intense scrutiny from government regulators and activists.

Before they sold Fan Pier, Chicago?s billionaire Pritzker family spent four years lining up permits for their $1.2 billion harborside building plan.

News Corp. is just beginning to weigh options for its new holdings,
recently acquired from Los Angeles Dodgers owner Frank McCourt. The transaction was part of a complicated deal under which News Corp. sold the Dodgers to McCourt.

A News Corp. spokesman declined comment. A spokeswoman for the Boston Redevelopment Authority, Susan Elsbree, also refused to offer a development timetable.

However, City Hall is already weighing in on what it wants from News Corp., calling for a master plan for the buildout of the entire 23-acre site near Pier 4 - an endeavor that could take six to nine months or longer.

And all that would come before News Corp. starts the city?s project approval process, Article 80 - another 12 to 18 months to complete, development executives said.

In addition, a small part of McCourt?s land may be subject to the state?s stringent Chapter 91 building rules, which strictly limit the size and height of new harborside construction.

The Federal Aviation Administration also has a history of raising last-minute objections to the height of new Boston towers, citing potential interference with Logan flights.
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LeTaureau



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^What?? This is ludicrous. I thought Fan Pier was already permitted and ready to go. Why should it matter that there is a new owner? Four year process, what a bunch of crap.

Meanwhile, the ICA must wait patiently before the neighborhood around it takes shape..
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Ron Newman



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this isn't Fan Pier, this is the former McCourt property, which has never had a real development plan.
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tocoto



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Boston continue to lose population, jobs and prestige small groups of activists, who hate every change ever made, slowly sink their own city (and region). All the non-activists, (probably the vast majority of people) go down with them. The whole process is so out of balance and produces such schlock for development. It's time for Vivian Li, Shirley Kessel, the CLF and all the other Know-it-alls to admit incompetence in urban planning and failure to guide developers to timely, affordable, high quality developments.
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PerfectHandle



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 128

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The whole process is so out of balance and produces such schlock for development. It's time for Vivian Li, Shirley Kessel, the CLF and all the other Know-it-alls to admit incompetence in urban planning and failure to guide developers to timely, affordable, high quality developments.


Tocoto, you are exactly right. However, it's not going to happen all by itself. People in the neighborhoods who believe in the possibly great effect of good urban development need to come to neighborhood meetings, and weigh in at local development review hearings. Otherwise, the busy-body anti-changers will be the only people heard.

In the case of the McCourt parcel, I think we have a slightly different story. It wasn't the City of Boston or Shirley Kressel or Vivien Lee who dragged their heels and pushed the possible construction date back to 2010. It was Frank McCourt. We can argue about the incentives that allow a developer to keep land as parking, but in the end, McCourt's lack of drive and apparent lack of interest in the actual developing bit is what has delayed this project so long.

We on this board have a chance to get involved in the process now. We might even be able to minimize further delays and neutralize the diluting effect that our NIMBYs tend to have. So I think we should.

Maybe we should keep a calendar of hearings and neighborhood meetings relating to this project. Maybe we should keep a calendar of hearings and neighborhood meetings for all large projects in Boston. Instead of hanging back and bitching at the final product, which tends to be the mode here, let's get involved.
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tocoto



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^Personally, I don't buy your explanation. Fan Pier has been sitting around across the street for 20 years while the city, state, CLF and other holier than thou mentalities made it miss cycle after cycle (I remember reading about the grand Hyait skyscraper proposal in the Globe back in the 80s, it's still dirt down there). McCourt didn't waste his money planning as he know it would be fruitless. He's pretty smart when you think what he got for a parking lot that is likely to still be one 20 years from now.

IMO, we need a major streamlining of the development process if Boston is to stay competitve with the rest of the country.
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chumbolly



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tocoto wrote:
It's time for Vivian Li, Shirley Kessel, the CLF and all the other Know-it-alls to admit incompetence in urban planning and failure to guide developers to timely, affordable, high quality developments.
What has CLF done to retard development of the Seaport? I generally have pretty high regard for CLF, given that they're an environmental group that is actually remarkably effective and they have a very pragmatic approach to transportation and energy issues. I do blame them for the excessive amount of green space in the Greenway, but I'm totally ignorant of their effect on the Seaport. Please fill me in.
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aws129



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tocoto, I completely agree that the approval process in Boston needs to be streamlined, but I think your frustration is misdirected. Vivian Li, Shirley Kressel, et al. are not necessarily to blame for this; they are activists in the best sense of the word, working for better development for the sake of the whole city, not against all development as a matter of principle. Unlike the NIMBYs we constantly decry on this forum, the real activists are not selfishly trying to protect the views from the condo. They are not holier-than-thou, they play an important civic role that requires a lot of hard work and dedication (and not a whole lot a reward): in Vivian Li's case, ensuring that new development helps create a vibrant and publicly accessible waterfront; in Shirley Kressel's case, fighting to make the development process, including approvals, more transparent and accountable and less the Mayor's patronage game.
These are worthy goals...I'm often surprised that these figures don't get more support on this forum.
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tocoto



Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chumbolly - no offense but have you been under a rock or something? Look at how long this project has been hashed to death. Parts of the first 3 of 117,000 hits found by Google by searching Fan Pier and CLF.

'Open Space' Dirty Words For Some Bostonians
By Robert Campbell, Globe Correspondent, 11/09/2000
I promise I won't write again on the topic of open space on the Fan Pier on the South Boston Waterfront. Not for a while, at least. But last week's column inspired another raft of reader responses, and it seems fair to give them a voice.

This is a timely topic. The state secretary of environmental affairs, Robert Durand, is reviewing a proposal for the site by developer Nicholas Pritzker. Durand is asking for fewer buildings and more open space. The Conservation Law Foundation, an open-space advocate, is threatening a lawsuit if it doesn't get its way.

Conservation Matters ~ Spring 1998

On the Waterfront: A Tale of Many Cities (and the future of one, too)

"Oh Charlie, oh Charlie?you don't understand. I could have had class. I could have been a contender." -Terry Malloy (Marlon Brando) speaking to his brother, in Elia Kazan's On the Waterfront (1954)

Between Boston's booming downtown and its South Boston residential neighborhood lies the South Boston waterfront-a vast, underused tract that the city hopes soon to usher toward stardom. On that expanse, Boston plans a major new development of the sort that will stand, well into the next century, as a monument to its civic nature, not to mention its current mayor, Thomas M. Menino. But whether Boston emerges as a world-class contender for recognition as a successful hub of late-20th-century urban design, or whether the thousand acres in question provide the stage for a multi-generational Lear-like tragedy, lies very much in the invisible balance of money and politics, law and grassroots advocacy.

The looming unknown is whether the South Boston waterfront, a sprawling area once dominated by railroads and shipping, and in recent years the site of cheap overflow parking, will become a new and vital urban community, or whether-in the words of one local commentator-its pocked and piled landscape will be the future staging area for structures that resemble "iceboxes on the moon." In late November, the Boston Redevelopment Authority, the BRA, unveiled a blueprint for what it grandly termed the South Boston Seaport. Then just as quickly, after public dismay grew audible, the agency began emphasizing the proposal's "interim" designation and recharacterized it as a draft proposal intended merely to spark conversation.

Some observers suggested that the Interim Master Plan, or IMP, functions more as a treaty among a handful of existing major property owners-including three large developers, Massport (which operates the Port of Boston, including Logan International Airport), and the city (which runs the Boston Marine Industrial Park)-allowing a few huge stakeholders to determine the fate of the lands within their respective spheres of influence. Indeed, more than half is controlled by public or quasi-public agencies. At this point no one is certain whether that's an advantage or not. However, alarms were set off when it appeared that the proposal envisions no more than 15 acres of publicly owned green space. The one certainty is that the IMP raises more questions than it resolves.

The interim plan, though vague in some respects, is all too specific in others. One immediate offshoot, missed by few, was the city's effort to pave the way for the northern corner of the site, called Fan Pier, to become home to a major cluster of new high-rise office towers and an 800-room hotel. These and adjacent parcels would allow buildings of up to 350 feet tall (later pared down to a temporary 150-foot limit along the water), the same height as some noted downtown towers-75 State Street, for example. These hefty structures would be sited along capacious boulevards.

Then there's the $700-million convention center. The development of Fan Pier is intended to dovetail with the convention center, a 1.6-million-square-foot project to be sited along the southwestern edge of the thousand-acre parcel. The city proposes to open the facility, designed to attract conventions of a size that now must be diverted elsewhere, by 2003-perhaps in time for a national political convention. According to the BRA, the convention center will, in turn, require thousands of new hotel rooms-the closer the better. It has thus become the magnet for a South Boston waterfront that is pitched to conventioneers. And that's an outcome that is not at all unattractive to the developers eyeing Fan Pier.

To some, in fact, the IMP appears to have been rushed out the door in response to specific plans-by Boston Properties and the Chicago-based Pritzker family (owners of the Hyatt hotel chain and sponsors of the "Nobel prize of architecture," which bears their name)-to install some three million square feet of floor area next to the nearly completed and already controversial new federal courthouse. The BRA, after all, wrote in its interim plan that the construction of 3,800 new hotel rooms would be "critical to the success of the convention center." Rumors even were heard that the city's entire interim plan bears an almost eerie resemblance to a similar proposal put together years earlier by one of Fan Pier's would-be developers.

The bottom line is that a great deal of momentum suddenly exists. Civic leaders, concerned citizens, housing and neighborhood advocates, environmental groups, and a flotilla of urbanists wasted little time in casting a critical eye on the BRA's plan. Although the initial response was disorganized, many voices were heard. Their message was strikingly consistent: the South Boston waterfront project, in all of its manifestations, should be cited for speeding, and ordered off the road, until a more representative cross-section of the citizenry can evaluate it and determine whether it encompasses everything that Boston's vision for the new century should be.

This dialogue has now begun. But it has not yet taken on a distinct institutional shape, or given rise to an alternative design. That is in the works, however. Meanwhile, the situation has proven a bonanza for the local media, and much ink has flown across the airwaves so far. Conservation Matters spoke to planners, urban designers, and others with an interest in the built environment, as well as those who have had a chance to give some thought to this particular thousand-acre slice of precious shorefront. Here's a report on what might be deemed a prefabricated pre-charrette charrette-that is, selectively solicited comments on the design issues that must be faced and resolved if the South Boston waterfront is to become an area graced by a quality that most people these days call "vision."

Robert H. Russell is formerly an attorney at CLF.


Developer eyes unified approach on waterfront
McCourt plan would combine sites into one megaproperty
By Anthony Flint, Globe Staff, 3/25/2000

In an unusual alliance, developer Frank McCourt has teamed up with a leading environmental group to pitch a new approach to developing the South Boston Waterfront: creating one single megaproperty where he and another major landowner would share in all revenues, so tall buildings could be located in the most appropriate places.

According to sources familiar with the proposal, the 16-acre property owned by the Chicago-based Pritzker family on Fan Pier and the adjacent 25-acre property owned by McCourt would, in a financial and legal sense, be combined.

The Pritzkers, owners of the Hyatt hotel chain, would reduce the size of their current, nine-block proposal for Fan Pier, allowing more parkland and a museum close to the water. In exchange, the Pritzkers would share in revenues from big office and residential buildings on McCourt's land, further inland.

McCourt would, in turn, share in the revenues generated by remaining development - lower-scaled hotels and condominiums, primarily - on the Pritzkers' land.

The high-stakes maneuverings are being played out with billions of dollars and the future look of the city at stake. The South Boston Waterfront has been called Boston's new frontier and is considered some of the most prized real estate in the country. But despite two years of planning by the city, critics have been disappointed with proposals for the area.

To sell the new approach not only to the Pritzkers, who have poor relations with McCourt, but also to Boston Mayor Thomas M. Menino, McCourt has joined forces with the Conservation Law Foundation, an environmental advocacy group that usually plays the role of critic.

Sources said representatives of the foundation, who are expected to pitch the plan alongside McCourt before Boston Redevelopment Authority Director Mark Maloney on Monday morning, plan to say the group will stop threatening lawsuits on waterfront development if the McCourt plan is adopted. Just this week, the foundation threatened to interfere with construction of the Pritzker complex, alleging inadequacies in the Municipal Harbor plan - the city's waterfront development guidelines.

But with the Conservation Law Foundation on board, McCourt plans to show Menino his long-awaited plans for his New Northern Avenue property, sources said. Those plans call for up to 3 million square feet of new development, including offices, residences, and stores.
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